Just need some advice

Discussion in 'AK & SKS Discussion' started by FlukeLSX, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    I don't particularly care for critique at this point. I do not claim to be an expert or pretend to be one.

    I am having some issues with... well how do I put this delicately.

    HITTING A GOD DAMN ****ING THING!

    k

    @ 25 yards I have no problem hitting milk jugs.

    @ 50 yards I cannot hit a 12 inch bullseye

    @ 100 yards I cannot hit a 12 inch bullseye (This I was expecting)

    I spent 140 rounds trying to find out where the bullets were hitting.... and couldn't tell where they were htiting.

    The target backdrop was the blue styrofoam insulation. So with all the ef'ing holes in it already I could not tell which holes were from my gun.

    Zeroing this thing is becoming more of a chore than I thought. Though, despite not being able to hit the broad side of a barn... I still enjoyed shooting it.

    Soo,

    Here's the dilema that I need some advice with.

    Aiming dead center yielded - 0 hits on 12 inch bullseye @ 50 yards and 100 yards.

    The gun is sighted for 100m. For those that don't know 100 yards = 91m

    For those who told me the difference between 50 yards and 100 yards is 2 inches are completely wrong. And to those same people who still insist this to be accurate information. The difference from 50 yards to 25 yards is NOT an additional 2 inches either. Maybe AFTER it's zero'd it might be but certainly not before.


    Shooting from iron sight:

    First to explain, when I first shot this gun @ 25 yards I could hit milk jugs at ground level without any issues. Aiming down the barrel for this gun right now is: 2 feet in front of a ground level target from the TOP of the barrel sight (not the middle of it).

    With that information I attempted 50 yards. I started dead center, and moved down by 6" intervals on the bullseye and backdrop. I did NOT hit the bullseye at all. I went as far down as 2 feet below the red dot in the middle of the bullseye using the center of the barrel sight.

    Now at 100 yards I lessend that drop knowing the gun should be more zeored for 100 yards than 50. Again I started dead center, nothing... dropped down by the same distance from red dot center and still did not hit the 12 inch x 12 inch bullseye at all.

    Now it is possible we were hitting the backdrop however with all the holes in the backdrop it was impossible to tell which holes were left by my gun.

    I was thinking about getting a plain white poster board next time just to find out where the hell the bullets are going and covering the entire backdrop.

    I feel I cannot zero this sight without knowing where the bullets are hitting first. And I can't figure out where to aim at these various ranges without knowing where the bullets are hitting.

    Would this be the best way to start with zero'ing the rifle for 100yards since you can't zero it at less than that via iron sight?

    Here's a couple of short video clips. And I'm sorry for the quality and lack of sound. ****ty camera... I will be getting a better one soon so that I can analyze the shots easier.

    Both clips shot by my newhew at 100 yard range:

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMvGEYsOPA[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djcxgHUpAi4[/ame]

    Both my nephew and myself felt we were more accurate at 100 yards than 50 but neither of us could hit the bullseye at either range.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  2. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I couldn't wade through all that but how about zeroing on paper to see where POI is. Of course start at 25 yards then use larger targets at longer distance. What caliber/model gun/ammo? An AK can easily be 6MOA or more with some ammo.
     

  3. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    As stated zero at 25 yards. Then get a new target and empty an entire mag into it at 25 yards to make sure it's holding zero. Then move to 50 and repeat then 75 then 100
     
  4. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    7.62x39 Ammo 123gr FMJ Klimovsk Russian 1000 Round Case

    Romanian M10
     
  5. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    Maybe I'm not understanding what people mean by zero at 25 yards.

    How exactly do you zero at 25 yards when the sight is gauged for 100m minimum?

    At 25 yards the barrel sight will not be on the target at all or even remotely close to it. So to explain what I mean: @25 yards milk jug - Aim point is 2 feet in FRONT of a ground level target from the TOP of the barrel sight NOT aiming from the sight riser. From what I can tell there is a 6 inch point of interest at this range from a standing position. I'm taking into account my inexperience and lack of a steady hand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  6. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I wouldn't sight in with surplus or the cheapo ammo. I would start with a clean/hole-free piece of white cardboard backing the target.
     
  7. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    Soo what determines cheap ammo from expensive ammo

    Bad ammo vs good.

    Of all the research I've done I've never seen factual evidence pointing me one way or the other.

    I've shot about 500 rds now out of this 1000 rd case and haven't had a single one fail on me.

    Even when it jams I reload the round back into the mag and it fires.

    Of course I've heard people suggest that more expensive ammo yields better accuracy but as I said I have yet to see factual evidence of this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  8. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    With those 500 rounds and another rifle, were you consistently hitting what you were aiming at? If so, it is probably decently consistently loaded and would be what i consider "good" ammo.

    Inconsistent loading is the complaint i hear the most about the Bear & Wolf ammos versus Winchester, Federal, PMC, etc.
     
  9. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    I don't have any other guns. This is my first one.

    Well I've never used those other brands yet... but as I said I have not had a single round fail to fire. Jam yes, fail to fire no not yet anyways.

    And when it does jam, it's always when I start off with the first clip. But I noticed a possible issue with the bolt carrier that may be causing the load issue.

    Bolt carrier wasn't going all the way forward I had to play with it a little bit to get it to move foward once it did and once it fired I did not have a single problem with any subseqent rounds after that.

    I then took the first round or 2 that jam'd ran it through the mag and they fired as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    If you don't have another rifle in this same caliber, borrow one (and maybe a good rest or a sandbag) and see if it consistently hits the same spot nine times of ten. That will let you know if it might be inconsistent ammo.
     
  11. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    Well in those videos I posted we were using sandbags and while we could'nt hit the 12 inch bullseye.... It's possible we were hitting the backdrop... but given the back drops nature it was impossible to tell where the hits occured.

    But I'll probably use a white cardboard like you said just so I have a clean surface to see where they are hitting.
     
  12. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Find the ballistics of your ammo or something close to it. Once you know the trajectory you can "zero" at 25 yards knowing how low the POI will be there for a 100 yard true zero. That should get you on paper to then really zero at 100. Of course use a rest, sandbag, etc.
     
  13. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was this a new or used rifle? If used or a surplus build, you could have a bad barrel.
    Put a 3" red dot in the middle of a 4'x4' clean cardboard. At 25 yards see where you are impacting without changing the point of aim. Also verify that you have clean round holes. A sideways hole indicates key holing.
     
  14. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    Extreme accuracy with an AK or SKS is almost a moot point,

    so forget "good" ammo. They were built for the M43 factory

    surplus ammo.

    Get a clear backdrop, see where your bullets are going.

    On my AK, " 100 yard zero" is the third click on my rear sight

    elevator, because my particular gun shoots low.

    As someone else stated, start at 25 yards, then as you move out,

    further distances(50 yards,75 yards, etc) see where your bullets

    deflect, and make adjustments.

    These guns neither have the range, nor were they designed for

    extreme accuracy. So "good ammo" may be a waste, in many

    circumstances. I merely accept my AK and SKSs do what they

    do well, and forgive their range and accuracy issues.
     
  15. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    New not factory surplus. All the M10's are like this far as I know.
     
  16. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    Just an FYI, seen a video on youtube of someone hitting a 6" target from 600 yards with a scope. Not necessarily with the gun model I have but with an AK.
     
  17. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    Just an FYI, seen a video on youtube of someone hitting a 6" target from 600 yards with a scope. Not necessarily with the gun model I have but with an AK.

    Here's another video of a WASR10 with some VERY impressive accuracy as well. Granted I know I'm not as good as this guy is but... With the right understanding yes AK's can and will be very accurate. From a standing position From 25 yards to 300 yards. with ironsights.

    http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f19/ak-47-video-67796/
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  18. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    Yes, you CAN shoot very accurately with an AK, but this is not what they

    were designed to do.

    I've seen people drive 150MPH in a standard Buick, and get

    alcohol poisoning from BEER, but that is not what either of these

    two products were designed to do, either. I've seen the 600 yard

    video, also, the reason, like many popular movies, that it's a

    sensation, is it's somewhat of a departure from normalcy.


    In the event you have high expectations for extreme accuracy for your

    AKM, best of luck to you. You may want to consider high-end ammo

    from Norma, Speer, or Hornady, in that event.

    The M43 round is designed for a 400 yard range, and the guns designed to

    shoot it, the AK and SKS, were for infantry purposes. When a

    Lieutenant can order a squad or platoon to fire a massed volley in your

    direction, how accurate does the average gun have to be?

    Obviously, loose tolerances, dependability, and built in cleaning kits

    were much more important to the Russian M.O.D. when these designs

    were adopted, chosen over half a dozen more accurate types.

    Arguably, certain people can shoot certain AKs very accurately. I can also

    detail the interior of my car with toothpicks and sani-wipes, too.
     
  19. FlukeLSX

    FlukeLSX New Member

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    lol well considering most RL scenerios occur at far less than 100 yards... Apparently they have to be very accurate which is the ultimate problem.

    25 yards fine

    50 yards lol not a chance

    100 yards "is that a bullseye or a mirage?"


    I have people giving me mis-information is all and I'm trying to sort out the BS from the facts.

    No there is no 2 inch drop from 100 yards to 50 yards.

    And no there is no additional 2 inch drop from 100 yards to 25 yards.

    So like I said... I'm trying to ween out the bad advice from the good advice.

    What the gun is designed to do I already know... I shoot for fun not to kill someone at close range. So if I have to spend another $1000 to convert the gun to the way I want to have fun then so be it.

    It's not always about function as much as "I wonder if I can do this?"

    As I said in my original post I'm not here to be critiqued I'm here for advice.

    My first time at an official range, and I realize just how many people have no idea what they are talking about.

    I got people at the range telling me to aim higher at 50 yards above dead center.

    Is it that hard of a concept to understand closer range means you aim lower on the target?

    This lead me to believe either 1. These people never zero their own guns and 2. Might have even paid to have them zero'd for them.

    Which basically means there are more scrubs out there shooting guns and I shouldn't feel so left out because I can't hit spit at 50 or 100 yards.

    My ultimate problem isn't rather or not the gun is doing what it's supposed to be doing... in fact it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do... I just have to tweak it for my style and comfort zone... and that is what I'm having the problem with.

    But it's blatant mis-information to assume AK's are not accurate there are plenty of facts to the contrary.

    It's also a blatant mis-information as to how reliable AK's are (The Legend) The fact is they are no more reliable than any other rifle.

    I've seen videos of an AR15 with more reliability than an AK when burried and pouring dirt/sand/mud on them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  20. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Active Member

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    When I need to sight in a rifle I do the following:

    1) boresight the gun (a laser boresighter saves a lot of ammo cost)

    2) attach a target with 1 inch grids onto a large piece of card board and start at 25 yards to make sure I am "on paper". If necessary make adjustments to get close to bull's eye. A little low is good. When I am close enough that I have no doubt I will be on paper I move to the next distance.

    3) attach new target grid to cardboard and move to 50 yards, make any necessary adjustments. When I am close enough that I have no doubt I will be on paper I move to the next distance.

    4) attach new target to cardboard and move to 100 yards, my scoped hunting rifles I set to be two inches (squares) high, dead center on windage at this distance.

    Using my eyes, for an AK, SKS with iron sights I would be happy with putting all rounds in a pie plate at 100 yards. YMMV