Just how smart is it to "Train like the pros?"

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by p35bhp55, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. p35bhp55

    p35bhp55 New Member

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    I've been reading, watching and talking to a buddy who is SRT at the county and am really starting to wonder if the average gun toter needs to be following training trends. First, they are geared up, wearing body armor and on a mission. We are on the way to Subway with the kids. They are going to square off to the threat to avoid the armpit hit that will defeat their armor. We might do well to stick to the Weaver stance so we can be a smaller target. They spec weapons and holsters etc. based on regs and job needs, we probably have very different needs. I dearly love tactical lights and sights but can't help but think the average Joe doesn't need to follow the Pros too blindly, you could get hurt if they stop too fast.
     
  2. jjfuller1

    jjfuller1 New Member

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    having had military training, i am very glad i have the knowledge i learned from it.. that being said yes, SD/HD takes a different training base than the pros, however sometimes it can be helpful to have the pros knowledge. would i wear a kevlar vest for going to the mall? no. but if someone breaks in i know how to clear my house. i say if you have the info great, keep it in your memory banks. but train for more public, civilian style confrontations.... IMHO, training of any kind is better than nothing. but try to focus on the real possiblilites, and not the what if's.
     

  3. p35bhp55

    p35bhp55 New Member

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    I doubt I could forget my time with Sam if I tried and just the mental conditioning that makes you respond is worth a lot. What brought my post on was another thread where the dreaded SERPA holster was once again trashed and the logic was if this or that group didn't want to use them, nobody should. Also my well meaning friend who was correcting my stance until I mentioned my shirt had no bullet proof qualities. Gun TV that has become popular lately seems to follow in lockstep, another thing is that after years of the nine being too small too weak stc. the experts are deciding it's ok. Could it be that since their handguns are secondary and the targets probably armored the nine is fine because it's easier to make head shots with? That may not transfer well to you and I either.
     
  4. bonney

    bonney New Member

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    No, what we have found is that the .45 and .40 are nothing special, the 9 is cheaper to practice with, easier to control, and with a good load, speciifically the 100 gr Corbon, it works just fine.
     
  5. MarkAD

    MarkAD New Member

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    Interesting title. but incorrect thesis. We should be following "Self Defense" pro's not attempting to replicate what law enforcement does.
    They are 2 different responses.
     
  6. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    While I am very grateful for my 70's era LE training, and while my time as a 90's era special weapons team medic were insightful, there is no way on this Earth that I would use the training for civilian self-defense. Besides the obvious protection issues, there is one big reason for this. I don't have a duty to act. Another reason is chances are I will be on my own in a self-defense situation. LE tactics are great when you and your team have to go in and subdue, but all I have to do as a civilian is try to stay alive until the police get there. Avoidance, cover, concealment, and retreat are my primary thoughts. John Wayne is dead, and I want to wait a while to follow in his footsteps.
     
  7. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

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    LE and military plan for team tactics. Most any threat you face will be on your own. You train for the threat you anticipate.
     
  8. p35bhp55

    p35bhp55 New Member

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    That's why I'm a mech. not a writer. What I described is what I'm seeing but I have to ask, how does one become a self defense pro? Hang out on dark streets in bad areas?
     
  9. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Hell i'm just proud to hear any gun owner gets any kind of training-
    Far too many spend a hundred bucks or so- take a 8hr class & start carring a very dangerous weapon just because they can :(
     
  10. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    I'm really not trying to be a smart ###, but what exactly is a self-defense pro, and how did they become one? Did they learn some skills at a dojo and incorporate firearms into it? Did they try to adapt LE or military training to what they think will be the civilian equivalent? Is it a college degree in butt whooping? Or are the "experts" just masters at BS with a goal of making your wallet lighter?

    Something I have noticed missing in many classes I have taken was rule number one, I think from Bill Jordan. Carry the same gun in the same holster in the same location every single time. I don't remember if he said it or not, but another thing I heard attributed to him was only practice with the ammo you carry.

    Back in my brief stint in LE we qualified with .38 Special wadcutters, but nobody carried them. We wore crossdraw holsters, but for safety reasons we weren't allowed to practice or qualify with them. We shot the PPC course for qualifying with 60 rounds loaded out of our strong side pocket. It was stupidity at it's finest. We had to demonstrate we could shoot the paper man, but nobody was giving us the tools we needed to rapidly defend ourselves on the street.

    Today, thanks to litigation, high ammo prices, and insurance company regulations, most civilians are totally unprepared to defend ourselves if all we do is go to the range on a regular basis. We don't have the muscle memory to find our weapon and draw it. We don't have the muscle memory to bring our weapon from the holster to the target. We don't even have the muscle memory to recover for our second rapid fire shot. Most ranges won't allow us to hone these skills.

    Now I know there are a bunch of people that will argue this point with me, but self defense with a handgun has nothing to do with skill, form, stance, or grip. It's all about muscle memory. It needs to be a reflex, and we aren't training to work that way. Unless you are in a situation such as a home invasion that gives you time to prepare, we are woefully lacking in the skills needed for self defense.
     
  11. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    IMO the OP has an excellent point!
    Too many look at military and SWAT as the "pros" they need to emulate.
    But the stances you use w/ body armor are very different.
    All Army ow wear body armor so we train very different than we used to.,its all about "presenting the plate"

    Also those guys can afford more complicated training regimens that dont yield muscle memory until you shot tons of rounds.

    civilian self defense training is better the less it resembles those tng approaches.
     
  12. GrtWhytHype

    GrtWhytHype New Member

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    I was listening to the SOFREP podcast the other day and they had on a retired Delta Master Sergeant. He was telling the story of a POW rescue in Mogadishu. At one point during the story he made a comment that really stood out to me. "Train for how you fight." Basically you can train for this and that all you want but if that's not how you'd actually fight then when the SHTF you're not going to react the way you need to. I try to practice startled reaction times because I assume that's the situation I'll be put into. If I can see it coming I have a chance to avoid it. It's the ones I don't see coming that worry me. So being able to respond smooth and fast are big concerns for me. Not the high speed low drag operator mall ninja stuff. Although that stuff is fun from time to time.
     
  13. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    well the truth of the matter is that with little or no training whatsoever the average joe/jane civilian wins armed confrontations with goblins at a steady rate of nearly 100%. if they werent the media would be all over these stories of how good guys are getting slaughtered by criminals and guns are evil.

    thats not happening. the average joe/jane is routinely shooting and running off maurading thugs on a devastingly regular basis.

    i believe this occurs because the average goblin is a lazy shiftless coward out to make an easy buck or get his jollies raping children. when they are confronted by deadly force they flee post haste. sometimnes they get shot sometimes not but they key to it all is the citizen putting forth armed resistance.

    we see it time and again even with the mass murderers. when confronted they get shot by the average joe/jane or commit suicide on the spot. thats why the clackamas mall shooting stopped showing up in the media. ccw person confronted the shooter with deadly force shooter ran away and shot himself.

    now im not saying dont worry about training you will be ok. what i am trying to get across that just having the ability to confront a goblin puts the odds waaaaay in favor from the get go. murderers robbers thugs rapists all require a disarmed populace to be successful. thats why democrats want us disarmed. cant have their constituants getting wacked can we??
     
  14. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    I would love to see a source on that stat. What you're saying is that the average untrained citizen has a higher success rate than the police, and I would love to be able to quote that source to some friends of mine.
     
  15. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    Actually the avg armed citizen has a better rate of not shooting the wrong perspon tahn police by about a factor of 2.5

    I dont remebr the soruce but i am sure someone else will.

    2-3% of hitting the wrong guy for civlians and about 11% of shooting innocents for police.

    Reason is clear IMO: the citizen is already there and knows exactly who the bad guy is ,but the police has to figure things out when they get there in a hurry.
     
  16. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the difference is that the civilian isnt trying to arrest the goblin and they are required to use the least force required. police arent just being randomly attacked as a rule. when police are off duty just being a citizen they have the same success against goblins as the average joe. just recently in san antonio an off duty officer stopped a theater shooter.

    you just dont see any stories about citizens pulling a gun then the bad guy grabbing it and shooting the citizen. it doesnt happen. but there are all sorts of stories about police getting shot with their own guns.

    why that happens is civilians arent trying to arrest or apprehend people and arent getting into wrestling matches with goblins at traffic stops.

    what typically happens is a goblin comes into a home or business tries to commit a crime civilian pulls a gun and starts shooting at the goblin who then drops right there or flees.

    police pull over a car driver or passenger get out and attack the cop or the officer tries to detain a person and while trying to cuff em the wrestling starts and thats the difference. when officers are confronted the same way by a goblin that civilians are they experience nearly 100% success.

    when was the last time you heard of the police getting wiped out in a straight up gun fight?? doesnt happen.

    the difference is that police cant just shoot a suspect civilians can and do because their lives are at immediate risk. by the time an interaction that police are having with a suspect turns into self defense with deadly force its often during a hand to hand wrestling match.
     
  17. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    JonM

    I can follow your logic, but it doesn't help me present my argument. Have you something firm to back it up? FBI, CDC, or even NRA stats would be a huge help. Heck, I would even accept stats from the Brady Bunch if they come close. Thanks
     
  18. AOK

    AOK New Member

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    I guess that depends on what your definition is of "all sorts". I'm not arguing it doesn't happen, but it's less than 2-3% of deaths when looking at the 2011 FBI statistics.
     
  19. AOK

    AOK New Member

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    For me the OP point is two fold for me.

    1. When considering attending a new school I do as much research as possible. Talk to past students, read AAR's, talk to the instructors, look over the instructors training background etc. If something throws up a red flag for me I spend my time and money at a different school.

    2. Whenever I attend a class regardless of it's firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, hand to hand I apply Dave Spaulding's 3 S's. 1. Does it make SENSE? 2. Is it SIMPLE? 3. Is it STREET PROVEN?

    If after the class I determine it doesn't make SENSE for me I don't continue to spend time working on it or work it into my training/practice. This includes if it is a ttp more suited for military, SRT, LEO, etc.
     
  20. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    Americas libertys are traced to the armed citizen. The armed citizen moved on to the Frontiers of early America with no trained military support. It was only after they brought about a civilized government did they "Invent" police.
    In Canada for example the police and military were allowed to enter the Frontiers first. Canada is of course more of a police state. The armed citizen should not be compared to a Swat member. The armed American citizen is unique in history.:)