Is SWAT a Joke ?

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by BigO01, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Boy do we seem to be getting some great news stories about our local cops lately .

    Last nights big story was about a SWAT Teams little 8+ hour adventure in 100+ degree heat .

    Lady claims her boyfriend was threatening her with a shotgun and she managed to get out of the house and go to a neighbors home .

    News story admits it wasn't clear if she called police at neighbors or her house but anyway , Police show up and talk to her at her neighbors and decide to call in a SWAT team to surround the home .

    This apparently started fairly early in the day and the SWAT team spent the day with the home surrounded despite not talking to suspect or hearing any gunshots or seeing movement or anything from the home .

    They finally decide to check the place out and find they perhaps have had an empty home surrounded the whole time !!!

    Yep No boyfriend , no nothing , not a single person there .

    So either he left before they showed up or he managed to get past an entire SWAT team unseen , either way it sure doesn't instill confidence in the SWAT teams ability to do their job now does it ?

    O and this was in a normal subdivision not a wooded setting by any means so if he left with them there they must have been sleeping or something .

    The T in SWAT is suppose to stand for tactics and it sounds like they're long overdue to change the ones they use .
     
  2. mrwatch

    mrwatch New Member

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    He probably ran when she went next door. We had a case north of here a few years ago. Man was hold up in his home out in the country. Police finally did something when they decided to move in and the house burned to the ground. Found out the man had an escaped through the basement. People wanted the police to pay for a new house? I don't think that ever happened. Anyway they finally found him at a camp site after a tip and he went down shooting.
    A few weeks ago a local man went off the edge. Said he would shoot anybody that tried to stop him. The sheriff lined the street with shot guns in hand. A some what busy little in a tiny town highway. He finally came out and fired two shots into the air before they subdued him. He could have hit passing cars. He is charged with using a hand gun in a felony. I will be watching this one. In my state using a firearm in a felony is supposed to add on an automatic two years. At least in an armed robbery.
    So did the swat team mess up? :confused: Probably they did just as they needed not knowing if the man was still inside or offed himself. The mind has ways of playing some nasty tricks.
     

  3. chorst294

    chorst294 New Member

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    First off, S.W.A.T. stands for Specail Weapons and Tactics. I spent time on my dept's SWAT team and can tell you we aren't a bunch of Rambo's looking to run through the front door and kill everyone. Diplomacy is what's expected of us first. Trying to come to a peaceful resolution first without any violence. As much as I love breaching the front door of a home, I really don't want to put myself at uneccessary risk. Every situation's different and we don't know what kind of info they had at the time. We should never judge people when our only source of info is the local news. Trust me, accuracy is not their main objective. Dynamic entries (forceful, high speed entries) put everyone involved at risk.
     
  4. dragunovsks

    dragunovsks New Member

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    I saw an episode of one of those SWAT shows (believe it was Dallas SWAT, but I wouldn't swear to it). A woman called the cops saying that her neighbor was shooting at her house. The cops showed up along with the SWAT team and set up outside and began talking to the neighbor over a loudspeaker. After about 9 hours of not hearing anything they decided to use a ram on the front door and enter the house. Keep in mind that the front door is where the woman said he shot from.

    Several SWAT officers ran up to the door and attempted to enter. They hit it several times with the ram and nothing happened, simultaneously the commanding officer of the team asked the woman if she was sure that this was the correct door. She replied, "Now I'm not so sure that anyone was there!" Basically some kids were setting off fireworks and she freaked out and dreamed up the whole thing. I don't know if they charged her with anything but I think they should have.
     
  5. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Well chorts it's a fact cops sure love to kick down doors and hell even shoot and kill little old lady's who Think their defending themselves from criminals coming in their homes .

    Not to mention scaring the hell out of families shoving machine guns in their faces and throwing them to the floor when they can't even go to the correct address for their little "No Knock" party's .

    Funny when the bullets are flying and people dying they can't seem to find the balls to go and do something Like in the Columbine shooting where they stood outside while people were being executed .

    Personally I don't care if you call them SWAT or TAC units or whatever I think they're a plain joke .

    Why spend all the money giving them state of the art weaponry when they won't actually use them to save a life once in awhile ? They might as well just be models for gun companies to sell guns standing around looking real cool with their AR's while people get killed .

    Cops might as well have standing orders with the local pizza place when there is a hostage situation , even if hostages are being executed all they do is stand around playing with themselves .

    Cops are such chickens they gotta have 20+ buddies show up at every situation even a stinking traffic stop !

    This past 4th of July they had traffic snarled with cops flying up jumping out of their cars drawing their guns acting all bad waving them around , yet when we got up to the situation they had one car with one guy pulled over and he was being completely cooperative and even answering questions for them while being searched yet more cars are still flying up in my rear view mirror with fools jumping out drawing guns .

    You guys should all go to Hollywood cause you sure put the "Keystone" cops to shame with your comedy skits or would if we took the loaded guns away from you so you can't shoot yourselves and little old ladies .

    Between cops shooting themselves , killing unarmed people and standing around doing nothing we could eliminate thousands of stats that the Antigunners come up with every year of gun misuse if they just went back to hiring real men to do the job .
     
  6. chorst294

    chorst294 New Member

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    By real men, I take it you mean how police acted long ago? Well, we've actaully started recognizing peoples civil rights for the past quarter century. True, it can make it very difficult for us to do our job, but these rights were intended to protect us. It seems as though you don't have too much respect for or faith in Law Enforcement. In that case, why not join the police academy yourself and learn first hand how those situations which look rediculous to most are actually common sense reactions to those who know what's going on. Please save your judgement for when you have all the facts. You have no idea why the police had that guy pulled over, he could have had a body in the trunk and just robbed a bank for all you know. And finally, I just have to know, do you have any military or law enforcement experience to back up your highly opinionated statements? I hear these kinds of opinions all the time from people on the streets (usually high drug areas) and it's funny how we're the first people they call when they're getting their butts kicked or shot at!
     
  7. Texanbybirth

    Texanbybirth New Member

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    Since they are so dumb and you are so smart, what should they have done? Stayed at the station and polished their rifles? Burned the house down? Assume she was lying?
     
  8. pioneer461

    pioneer461 New Member

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    It's sooooo easy to Monday-morning-quarterback when you wern't there and don't know what happened.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    SWAT and Tac units aren't a joke, they are a much needed resource, but they have to be fielded correctly. Just like snipers in Vietnam, everyone looks back now and thinks, "why did it take so long to get them on board"; no one knew how to employ them.

    Hell, the great General Norman Schwartkopf was guilty of not having a single assignment in mind for the SAS during Desert Shield. He was of the "clank-clank - I'm a tank" mentality to warfare and even though the SAS already had units on the ground and behind enemy lines, the good General at first refused to empower them on our behalf.

    You could have the best, most highly trained, kick ass, take no prisioners unit on the planet, but if the people in charge do not know how to properly field them, or won't let them be fielded properly because of fear of lawsuits or public image, they become incapable of doing their jobs properly.

    Example? Chief Darrel F. Gates, regardless of what you think of him, fielded possibly the first "SWAT" teams in Los Angeles. They were kicking in doors, doing raids, busting heads and putting bad guys in jail by record numbers. They also were accused of deadly force, corruption and incompetence by the black community that grew into a ground swell of public emotion. Even though this team had not lost any court cases, or challenges, prior to the events that unfolded, and even though this same team had given several communities back their streets, the powers at be above Gates recommended that he put the muzzle back on and put the leash back on his boys because of public opinion. Instead he made the choice to dismantle the team, re-allocate the officers into other positions, than allow the team to be fielded incorrectly.

    Later on, operations like C.R.A.S.H. & Operation Hammer were successful, but also were met with groundswell against the tactics used.

    Society, apparently, would like to have it both ways and utilize the outdated "ToolShed" brief. That term was actually coined in the 60's, but was given credit in a straight to video movie with Lawrence Fishburn called Bad Company.

    In the initial brief, it was hypothesized that the general public would not stomach highly trained, Uber troops unless there was a war effort to fight. As such, the best way for the military, at the time, and Government Agencies, was to take these super soldiers and put them in a "Toolshed" until such time that they would be needed. It's a fantastic principle, if you never step foot in the real world. There is a great story on it from the annuals of the CIA called "Dark Passages" or "Dark Orders" something like that. I found it after doing some research on the term.

    My point is this - You can't have teams like these and not expect them to stumble, especially if you don't dedicate full resources to constant training, you don't send them to the field trials, you don't give them one job to do and that is SWAT. If it's a patrolman, who is also your lead door kicker, because he happens to weigh 250 & bench 450 well, that's great. But put him up against a guy who is 180 pounds that does the job day in and day out and it's going to be a night and day comparison.

    These small town units, even ones that handle call outs for multiple towns, aren't ONLY SWAT GUYS - they also have other job duties, and those job duties take away from their training, take away from their cohesiveness and take away from their operational ability.

    That - and you have to have someone behind the scenes with the sand to say "Green Light" and be willing to stand behind that choice, despite the fact that their career could be OVER in a blink of an eye if they are wrong...

    JD
     
  10. FALPhil

    FALPhil New Member

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    JD, you left out the other side of the coin: You can't have teams like these and expect to remain a free country. Long term, these are the guys that become JBTs.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, the USA is fast becoming a police state. We keep putting more and more officers on the street, even though violent crime is falling. BigO01 is right in one respect. Police have an "us vs them" mentality and respond to everything with overwhelming force. When you combine that with all the surveillance that goes on everywhere you turn, public and private, and the callous disregard the feds have shown for privacy, and the desire for political liberals to control every facet of our lives, we will probably lose our liberty in our lifetimes. And I am not even going to touch how local governments use police activities as a revenue stream.

    Never one to identify a problem without proposing a solution, my answer is to staff down police departments and rely on community reservists. It has and does work. Sophisticated police departments are a development of the latter part of the 20th century, an outgrowth of the "drug war", which no sane person will agree is winnable. For the first 180 years of this country's existence, most communities had a constable who drafted upstanding citizens in crisis situations. Example: the Texas Tower shooting in Austin - it was a civilian with a deer rifle that kept Charles Whitman pinned down so the cops could rush the tower. There was none of the "leave it to the professionals" crap.

    It is my strongly held belief that law enforcement should not be a career objective. I never knew a cop (and I have known quite a few) that was in the business for more than 10 years that wasn't warped by it.
     
  11. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    +1 - The problem seems to be that every police dept. in the country is in a race to get the latest and greatest technology available - the old excuse about being outgunned by the bad guy is getting old. We have no crime rate here - just drunks and minor traffic issues. Some of the crap they have rivals the Spec Ops and Delta force equipment. Whatever happened to the "beat cop" who used his leg muscles and his customer relations skills to earn the respect of the citizens in his jurisdiction? My town is exactly 1 square mile. Every three years the police use the local paper to prep everyone to the fact that they need a new cruiser and taxes will be going up. At one point we had 12 cops. 6 full time, 6 part time FOR ONE SQUARE MILE!!! I have vehicles that are 15-20 years old and I drive on average 250 miles a week - how the hell do you wear out a "cruiser" patrolling 1 square mile - and they have three cars - one brand new Dodge Magnum, I guess they do not want to be outdone by any other small town police dept..add to that the small town "Walking Tall" / Barney Fife mentality and if it wasn't so expensive it would be laughable!
     
  12. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Well guys for one thing this isn't a small town and even if it does have a small population say in just the thousands it is smack dab in St. Louis County which is nothing more than a series of cities , villages , townships etc .

    The unit responding for SWAT duties is almost always ST. Louis County themselves or they at the very least augment all the small departments with their personnel and toys .

    Toys that include their own helicopter , complete Bomb squad "Including robots" etc. etc . , I know for fact from seeing them deployed over the years they also have the bulletproof shields .

    So to answer your question Texanbybirth I would have deployed one of my little robots long before spending the entire day standing around in sweltering heat without a single contact or even sight or sound of life in the building myself . Or maybe they could try something simple like looking in the windows or seeing if the door is unlocked and go in without kicking it down behind their protective shields . They did have a small army on site .

    After all if this individual was indeed a danger to the public wouldn't you agree that establishing the fact that he is even in the building kind of an important task ?

    Fact is all they did was Assume her story was correct , do we spend millions of dollars on training and equipment for these guys to stand around and assume or are they suppose to be trained to verify and assess a threat ?

    What if a real threat began somewhere else many miles away ? St. Louis County is a huge area "500+ square miles" and they would be seriously delayed in responding to another situation a delay that could cost the lives of the tax payers they are suppose to be protecting .

    And chorst294 were you people recognizing Civil rights when you Murdered Randy Weavers wife while she was unarmed and holding her infant child ?

    How about when you fired 60+ shots at an unarmed man in NY city and murdered him ?

    When you broke into private homes and stole private property in the aftermath of Katrina ?

    Locally cops made unwarranted home searches and arrests of people on trumped up drug charges and confiscated cars and money some of which is now missing which has lead to State agencies coming in and taking over and firing an entire police force , law suits are flying everywhere over this one .

    As far as the traffic incident the guy was leaning against a patrol car being searched with a cop on either side of him Plus the cop searching him plus two more standing by his Empty car behind them , the cars were all in the right lane and I was passing in the left with windows down doing maybe 5 mph so it really doesn't matter why they pulled him over he was surrounded and being cooperative as I could hear them speaking .

    Do you think arriving officers who could see all of this really needed to draw guns and start waving them around ? This all happened at a 4 way signaled intersection with a business on all 4 corners including a gas station they were directly in front of and a firehouse across the street with hundreds of cars on the road leaving a public fireworks display .

    Say what you want , but cops are more interested in looking like some kind of bad ass every chance they get rather than simply doing their jobs especialy when they get the chance to run around in their SWAT gear .
     
  13. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    You know, that's a great thought on the surface, but if you examine it for a minute you will see that exactly what you are talking about is why that probably is not going to happen in your, or my, lifetime.

    The mere fact that these guys make a living doing this is one of the key things that should factored in when you want to start throwing around terms "police state" and what's going to happen when.

    Cops don't work 24-7. You saw numerous cases during the infamous Katrina, that everyone wants to point too for the bad that was done, where cops were more worried about their own homes and their own families than standing fast to a line in the sand that they didn't agree with. Call it what it was, they put themselves, and their own family / property / safety above the social directive from up on high. Abandoning your post, cowardice, selfishness, whatever - they didn't follow the orders that were given that they didn't agree with.

    Do you honestly think the majority of the guys in blue are going to go to work from 12 to 10, rape and pillage the community they work out of, punch out, go home and be subjected to the same kind of "police state" you are describing? Seriously? If so, well, I guess you have a bit more cynical view than I do and there is no point in discussing this further because we will have no recourse other than to agree to disagree.

    ASIDE from that whole part of the discussion, do any of you, ANY ONE have any idea how many shooters there out there in the country? I am not talking stats about how many handguns have been purchased in the last 25 years. I am not talking about the house with 2.5 kids that has a shiny Walther in the nightstand. I am talking about the guys that hunt ( birds, groundhogs, deer, elk, Sasquatch ) along with the guys who competition shoot ( pistol, rifle, benchrest, across the course, 3-gun ), along with the guys who just get together with friends and go to the range once a week and blow through 200 or 300 rounds?

    We aren't talking small numbers, and we sure aren't talking a slim percentage of the population. Take a little poll around your place of employment, or your favorite coffee shop or anywhere you socialize and it will surprise you.

    I have a slanted view, because my cubicle at work is filled with SHOT show freebies and everyone knows I work in a gun shop also - but the number of people with gun questions, or stories, or just want to talk guns truly surprises me. We are talking people you wouldn't have any idea they are into competition shooting on weekends, or going out for a long weekend of groundhog slaying. These are people that truly enjoy doing these activities, and I live in the Blue half of the state. It's not like I work in a small, mostly farming community here. We have businesses that deliver groceries to your house and will walk your dog FOR you!

    Hell, most of the people on this forum board are shooters, of one caliber or another, and most of them have weaponry at their house as good as your average police force ( outside a truly automatic M4 ). Some of the guys on this board are better equipped than a SWAT team by themselves. :eek:

    Now, I have no desire to ever be shot at again in my life, but I ask you, would you rather be shot at by a scared cop with a Glock .40, or one of your fellow forumites with his Garand??

    Do you honestly think that if society broke down the first place the cops are going to be looking to "suppress" is going to be the middle class neighborhoods with people who go to work, go to church and pay their taxes?

    Everything needs checks and balances, but one of the nice things in this country is that the citizens can arm themselves accordingly, within the law, to be a necessary balance. Well, at least until November. :rolleyes:

    JD
     
  14. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    I say that exact episode. I would have sent her a bill for all the officers and equipment for that 9 hours.

    I think they are getting a little to much use now a days. SWAT going in for a simple pot bust ect..... I think the beat cops are getting a little soft in the long run.
     
  15. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    JD - I was beginning to get all teary-eyed and start waving my American flag, but your last paragraph negated everything that came before it...this coming election is going to be a honest-to-god reality check for many people who assume "it can't happen here". If Obama gets elected, it will start a progression of events in this country that only the most stout Socia-list can appreciate and understand. The "silent majority" in this country has been very lucky to date. That is going to change. The tenacity of the left is unchallenged and poised for victory. That spells defeat for every centrist and moderate in the country, and there will be no return to sanity and morality once the progression has advanced to that point. Don't be lulled into thinking that the "police state" won't become a reality - remember, the ability of a person to support his family and himself will trump any pie-in-the-sky perception of "moral" or "civil " responsibility. A poll was conducted several years ago whereby the respondants were run-of-the-mill beat cops. The question, to paraphrase, was "would you side with the citizenry or the government in a situation of societal collapse?" The results of the poll indicated a split down the middle, with the majority of "beat cops" acknowledging, or at least stating to the interviewer, that they would side with the citizenry. But half of the respondants felt an unwavering duty to obey orders, and we all know that LE brass (chiefs of police) are anti-gun, jackbooted thugs. This poll was conducted almost a decade ago, the results of such a poll today would probably be much different, and I fear NOT in favor of the citizenry. Obama has voted outright for total bans on handguns, ammunition, semi-auto rifles, and the right of a person to defend himself with a gun. These are facts, and can be verified by looking at this months issue of the American Rifleman. While many here feel that McCain is the same, the facts quite clearly indicate that he is the polar opposite of Obama on gun control. You see how the Supreme Court ruled in favor of granting terrorists habeas corpus rights under our Constitution - and how we narrowly defeated the anti-gun sentiments of the Liberal Supreme Court Majority (only because Kennedy voted his conscience and NOT with his sentiments). If this country takes even one small baby step to the left, we can kiss whatever freedoms we have left today goodbye. The LE hierarchy has always aligned itself with the left - do you not think they will take their marching orders from the left and impose and enforce all the invasive and intrusive laws that will become reality under a Liberal, UN supportive government? When I received my CCW permit many years ago, the Licensing Officer (Sherrif's Dept) said to me:

    That speaks volumes of the attitude of many in the LE field. They feel that they posess rights and privileges that we common "civilians" do not and should not have. As long as they are empowered with the right to carry and use a gun, nothing and nobody else matters or will stand in their way, because they have the "rule of law" behind them and on their side. I think very few in LE would be willing to sacrifice their "power" mentality and pension benfits to take a moral stand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2008
  16. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    RL - I am not sure if you meant that first statement as a slam or not, so I am going to assume not and continue, because I haven't known you to regard me in that way previous.

    I know that you have strong opinions on this issue of the coming vote, and I am not going to try to disuade them, nor am I going to agree with them outright.

    I respect what you are saying - and I understand where you are coming from, believe me I do. I intend on voting, and I intend on voting with firm beliefs. However, there is a HUMAN factor that isn't being weighed in hypotheticals here, on a lone internet forum.

    You can not ask a group of employees, of any corporation or entity, even in a "hush-hush, no one is going to know" poll about what they would do "IF" such and such occured, in a vacuum. That is what they polls you are talking about have attempted to do.

    Questionaire: Mr. Uniformed Trooper / Cop / Nut and Bolt guy for Boeing / Ice Cream maker, Do you feel that the company/entity that is paying your salary should be allowed to perform "X", which would normally be in violation of "law, code of conduct, moral belief, reasonable thought process" ??

    "Employee": *wheels spinning - thinking to one's self, what is the right answer and what is the "right" answer*

    You don't know. They don't know. I don't know. No one knows for certain what anyone else is going to do, until they up and do it. I guarantee you, if you polled 100% of the cops from New Orleans prior to Katrina and asked if they thought they personally, or their fellow cops, would abandon their post, you would have received a much higher percentage of "No. No "F"ing way" than you got from the real result.

    Nobody knows what a cop that has three kids, a nice house, a boat that he fishes off of on a lake with other "civilians" is going to do when "ordered" to accoust the very people he solicializes with. Maybe he protects his job, maybe he doesn't.

    You don't know! Nobody on this forum knows, so any speculation about what the jack booted thug gun grabbers are going to be able to pull off, and what they won't is complete fiction until such time that the orders come down and the chips fall where they may.

    Now, I work on a lot of cop guns. I do trigger jobs, I do glass bedding on sniper rifles, I do scope mounts, I do muzzle breaks, I do a full maintenence on their tactical AR's - and these guys are in the shop ALL THE TIME. It's not four guys out of 500, it's more like 200 out of 300 that are in the shop, filing in and out with info requests, some of them actually hunt on their own time, picking up and dropping off. They talk about all sorts of stuff, but mostly they talk about the job, and how much they hate the politics and what's BS and what isn't. Sometimes we get the funny story, or the exciting story about the big drug bust, but mostly, they talk about what is working and what isn't.

    They aren't a bunch of stand off droids, waiting for their next command, that can't wait to draw down on me and impose their will. They are normal guys, with families and fears and hopes and wants and needs, just like you and me. To be honest, half of them can't maintain their weapons, and judging by their targets, they don't shoot that well in the first place... :D

    I understand being ever vigiliant, and I understand fearing what powers could be invoked should A+B=C; but don't negate the human factor in that equation. There is no 100% truly predictable human behavior.

    You probably didn't know what the Marine next to you was going to do the first time a round whipped by your melon. I bet you knew what you THOUGHT he was going to do, and I bet you were hoping like hell he would do it and not surprise you, but you didn't KNOW, FOR SURE, what was going to happen with him until that time came and it actually played out.

    Don't sell the boys in blue short just because you assume they agree with a higher command - a lot of them are just like you and me. They work somewhere, or did work somewhere, that they could make a good living, but didn't necessarily agree with all the decisions and politics that went along with it.

    JD
     
  17. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    JD - My apologies if you took what I wrote as a slam. I wouldn't do that to you, for future referrence. You are one of the few out here that conducts himself as a gentleman and I truly respect that and will always treat you as such. What I meant was that up until your last paragraph I agreed totally with what you were trying to convey. Unfortunately when you said :
    This is where it gets dicey. To begin with, you are right in that we can arm ourselves "accordingly, within the law". Those options that fall "within the law" are getting narrower and narrower. And after November, if Obama wins, they will get narrower still. How is the citizenry of this country able to exercise the 2nd Amendment in the way in which it was intended when first written into the Constitution? Do you believe that it is possible for the citizens of this country to prevent a repressive government from seizing complete control? Regardless of how many hunting rifles and pistols are available to, or floating around in the hands of citizens, it is a fairytale on par with the movie "Red Dawn" to think that the citizenry can successfully "put down" a government-sponsored military/LE coup. And I doubt it would get the chance, because total control is being ceded in small pieces every day, all over this country from the local level to the state level, to the federal level. The common denominator at all levels is LE. They exist at every level to enforce the demands of the eliteist hierarchy at each level. Do you remember all of the Clinton "photo ops" with LE officials during the days leading up to the '94 gun ban and Brady Bill passage? I do. That's when I joined LEAA (Law Enforcement Alliance of America) and got a real education as far as where LE higher-ups stand on the gun confiscation scheme in this country. LEAA is basically a good organisation comprised of current and retired LE from all over the country, as well as civilian pro-gun activists. They themselves chastise the LE Brass for being discriminatory against civilian carry. But when they were pushing for passage of HR239(? I forget the bill #) which was to grant ex-LE the right to carry concealed across state lines, they sold it as a very important piece of legislation that would grow to include the civilian population. It's been almost 8 years since that bill became law and no new legislation has been introduced, and LEAA is suspiciously silent on this fact. All I'm saying is that to trust that LE will side with the general population in a SHTF scenario is like the old bumper sticker that shows several jack-booted-thugs in SWAT attire, and the caption reads "We're From the Government, and We're Here To Help You"... just take a look at what LE did to Randy Weaver...he was no saint, like the Branch Davidians, but nobody deserves to be entrapped.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2008
  18. chorst294

    chorst294 New Member

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    I have to agree with this, we're not droids, we're people like everyone else. We have our own personal beliefs that sometimes differ with the dept's. Look folks, I take my job seriously, but it is only that, "A JOB". I don't know about other states, but in FL, our police aren't spending their days thinking of better ways to screw the general public. Most of the police politics I've seen in the central FL area have absolutely nothing to do with guns or violating anyones rights. That's why we have so many lawyers, to keep that from happening. Speaking of lawyers, maybe we should turn our attention to the money grubbing lawyers for deteriorating this country, instead of the police. I do understand that LEO's aren't perfect and have been known to make mistakes, but who hasn't. The only difference is when you make a mistake, you don't have the media there to sensationalize it.
     
  19. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    +10 on the lawyers! The only difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead lawyer is that there are skid marks in front of the snake! I don't mean to offend you Chorst or any of the other cops on this forum. I respect what you do and can sympathize with the risks inherent in your job. Additionally, being in Florida, a relatively conservative state, your situation and the attitudes of your Dept. Chiefs are a bit more civil minded than in States like NY, NJ, and Mass., where the overwhelming "politically left" and "politically correct" bent dictates the demeanor and agenda of the police.
    In years past in NY, I always had deep respect for the NYSP - they were always professional and courteous. That has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Now I would rather deal with a Sheriff than a State Trooper. The trend seems to be from a credo of "to protect and serve" to "intimidate and harrass". When Hillary Clintoris was elected things changed a lot. She gave all LE and State employee's massive salary increases. I wanted to apply to the NYSP Academy but I'm too old - they get over $50,000/yr salary while in the academy - salary increases to almost $62,000 in their first year after graduation! I guess they now feel they have to show gratitude by increasing revenue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2008
  20. chorst294

    chorst294 New Member

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    I see your point. I'm not a fan of Hillary either, thank god she's not in FL. I can only speak for police in FL, things might be different in other states. My dept. wants us to keep busy, but never, ever requires us to write X amount of tickets. In FL, you'd be surprised at how little of a citation actually makes it back to the dept. that issued it. Most of the revenue goes to the Court system, or at least that's how I understand it. We've been told to write more warnings in recent times due to the economy.

    We have a SWAT team that gets a lot of it's funding through federal grants. We convert old equipment to meet our needs. We only carry our standard issue Glock 22 and a Bushmaster semi-auto AR15. We have a 40mm grenade launcher which was recently used to flush out a drug dealer from a house when he refused to exit. He had several warrants with a total of $150,000 bond and he has a criminal history longer than I am tall. Between the gas grenades and a Tazer, the situation ended peacefully with nobody getting hurt. I responded to the original call which caused him to receive the warrants. He stuck an AK47 in somebodies face after they ratted him out for selling drugs. He made it clear he wasnt' afraid to shoot it out with the police, then fled the scene prior to our arrival. I believe SWAT teams are needed these days. Their size and firepower should be dictated by the anticipated danger of the area. I don't know of any full time SWAT teams in FL. MOst team members volunteer a lot of their own time and receive little, if any compensation from the dept.