Is a CHL Just A Luck Rabbit's Foot?

Discussion in 'Oregon Gun Forum' started by FirearmsInstructor, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. FirearmsInstructor

    FirearmsInstructor New Member

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    Is a CHL Just A Lucky Rabbit's Foot? Does It Make You Safe Without Training?

    I've been turning away people who only want a concealed handgun class, but don't want to learn about the rules for deadly force. I've come to the conclusion that if they aren't willing to learn how to drive, or to learn the rules of the road, then maybe they shouldn't have a driver's license.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  2. Jstrong

    Jstrong New Member

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    Where are you from? Most states that require a handgun carry permit holder to take a class usually mandate that alot of the classroom time is in fact spent on deadly force laws,along with proper gun safety.
     

  3. FirearmsInstructor

    FirearmsInstructor New Member

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    Oregon's law just requires safety training. Also, most non-lawyers can't do a very good job with deadly force law.
     
  4. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

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    I offer courses for new hunters on how to shoot handguns, rifles and shotguns. The understanding of laws and use of deadly force is mandatory over here. It is also a big part of the hunting exam. I am with you man. You can sleep with a good conscience.
     
  5. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    You don't have to learn all of the ins and outs of driving in order to get your permit, just the basics. You really start to learn after you get your license, buy a car and hit the road.
    A firearms license is no different. you can only teach people so much anyway. Beyond that they need to seek further training or learn on their own.

    BTW you spelled firearm wrong. Lol
     
  6. FirearmsInstructor

    FirearmsInstructor New Member

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    Thanks mountainman 13. Next time I'll put on my reading glasses when i type.

    I think you describe what should ideally happen. Especially in these times, though, I don't see a lot of CHL licensees following up with further training. Yet they have a gun and think they're "safe." Here's what I'm worried about:

    YOU'VE BEEN SUBPOENAED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY, where you aren't allowed to have your lawyer present. How do you explain why you shot and killed the person who attempted to carjack you? You thought they were armed, but the police didn't find a weapon. You gave a statement to the police at the scene, before you spoke with your lawyer. NOW YOU'RE THE SUSPECT IN A MURDER INVESTIGATION.*How much should you have said when the police questioned you? You have calmed down after the initial shock, *and now you remember more details that you didn't tell the police. Will the grand jury think you are making them up?*What do you say to the grand jury to stay out of jail?

    ARE YOU PREPARED FOR THE LEGAL AFTERMATH?*Because simply having a gun or getting a concealed carry license doesn't protect you from the overpowering consequences of a self-defense shooting. If you don't know what to do and say NOW, you could end up in prison. Just having a gun without knowing how to survive the aftermath doesn't protect you or your family.*
     
  7. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    You're Absolutely right and knowing the laws should be priority one, but That's just not how people are nowadays. Most are bothered enough by the hoops they have to jump through to take advantage of their second amendment rights.
    Turning people down doesn't really help them or you in any way. You'll develope a reputation and they'll go somewhere else.
    Offering two levels of education would be a better option. You can certainly strongly suggest the extra training, but many will do the minimum required by law.

    I agree with your sentiment but it may not be the best approach. We need as many law abiding firearm owners as we can get these days.

    One of the mods may be able to fix your handle.
     
  8. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    sadly these are the people who don't feel the need to learn about the laws of carrying that in the event of having to use a firearm in SD situation will then wish they had. they will pretty much be screwed over for that lack of knowledge.

    i'm sorry, but i just can't have any sympathy for someone who is too stupid to get more training when they need it and refuse to because they don't feel the need to. let them learn the hard way. just keep doing things the way you are.
     
  9. CardiacColt68

    CardiacColt68 New Member

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    I took my CCP test here in NC a few weeks ago. Here's my take from a relatively new guy perspective. I took a range safety class when I bought my first gun. Then I took the NRA First Steps Class about 1 month later.

    The NC class was 1/2 the First Steps class. All repetitive, and not at all anything that would make me confident with CC. The second half of the day was split between a shooting test and a classroom session strictly about the legal issues. The shooting test was very simple, and did not require a holster or method of carrying. IMO it was too easy. The classroom session was good, and the instructors did a good job given the time limitations. Plus, almost NONE of us will ever be prepared to handle the questioning and legal ramifications of a SD shooting. That's why lawyers exist. I have read about 3 books, and countless web forums. But I still won't be prepared. i will shut up and hire a lawyer if I am ever that unfortunate. I do agree that many people are woefully unprepared to be carrying a firearm. But training and learning are a gun owner's personal responsibility, and no matter what is mandated idiots will slip through the cracks. We live in an imperfect world.
     
  10. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    So you think it's better that they have no chance at all? Lot's of old ladies deter home invaders all the time and they don't have any training. Maybe they should just sell their weapons and be totally defenseless. You have the same mentality as the government that is trying to disarm us. Who died and left you in charge of who has the right to self defense as long as it's on your terms. Many people don't have the money for the training. I think maybe you should pull the holier than thou stick out and start helping these people instead of looking down your nose at them.
     
  11. FirearmsInstructor

    FirearmsInstructor New Member

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    I come down somewhere nearer the Darwinian approach of Axxe55 than the viewpoint of rjd3282.

    CardiacColt 68 says that "training and learning are a gun owner's personal responsibility, and no matter what is mandated idiots will slip through the cracks. We live in an imperfect world. " Wise words.

    Here's why I am turning away people who just don't get it:

    1. They are not my responsibility.
    2. They may become my responsibility, i.e., liability, if I do give them just a minimum certificate course, then turn them loose on an unsuspecting world.
    3. I agree that many untrained people are fortunate enough to have used a gun - sometimes without firing a shot - to defend themselves and/or others successfully. But I can't train you to be lucky.
    4. I'm not saying who has the right to self defense. That's the job of the legislature and the courts. I'm just here to pass the word.
    5. I'm concentrating on those who will benefit from use of force training, like CardiacColt 68, rather than wasting my time on ignorant know-it-alls.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  12. LProf

    LProf New Member

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    I think we would all agree that someone who gets a CHL should learn the law regarding the use of deadly force in their state, and should get as much additional training as they can reasonably afford.

    If they don't take the opportunity to do so, and get in legal difficulty, it of course, falls on them directly, but unfortunatley it often has collateral consequences that adversely affect the rest of us.
     
  13. KG7IL

    KG7IL Active Member

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    Washington State is a shall issue. Guess you might say it's close to a lucky Rabbits foot.

    Although liberal today, our founding fathers of the Washington State Constitution didn't feel that our "government" should decide these things.

    If we had it my way, if someone wanted to carry they could and would. Why should a law abiding citizen be penalized, while the crook can carry.

    I think training would be a good thing, and I would encourage it, but I don't think I want the state or an officious instructor to make the call for individuals.

    Armed and Safe since 1974.... with a Wa State 'Lucky Rabbit's Foot"

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  14. KG7IL

    KG7IL Active Member

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    Agree on SHOULD. . .

    I sure would like to see how the otherwise law abiding and honest citizen fairs under restrictions mandated by 'gov'


    I'm not sure any level of training would protect me from Chicago Rules. I think that the otherwise law abiding citizen would be jeopardized by the stupid Chicago laws, far greater than in a state like Arizona or Alaska that allows carry without 'government approval'.

    Sure there is always a possibility of a 'Zimmerman/martin' type of trial, but many untrained people legally defend themselves without prosecutions.

    Training may or may not help in a over regulated, restricted locale.
     
  15. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    I'd be more worried about the media making a mess of things,

    or proper legal representation.

    I agree more with rjd3282.

    This sounds a lot like that firing range owner

    who thought it was better to "look at the way

    someone holds a gun" , instead of hiring NRA

    trained RSOs.

    Look at it this way: They already got their CHL, which

    included gun safety, did it not? So if they got this training,

    there is also a good chance they may get more. In the

    meantime, at the very worst, all you are doing is putting

    a gun in the hands of the LAC, which is RKBA at it's finest,

    considering the clean background check of ANY LAC who

    gets a CHL.

    Think about it these guys all have a clean criminal record,

    No substance abuse, alcoholism, or domestic violence. These

    folks are the creme' de la creme' of society, and statistically

    they show incredible responsibility with firearms.
     
  16. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    my premise is that it is the responsiblity of ther person with a gun to know the laws of their state. it comes back to the old saying, "ignorance is no excuse" that seems to apply.

    i believe that every LAC should be afforded the right to protect themselves in any legal manner they choose to. if that person chosses a firearm for protection, then it IMO comes with a certain amount of responsibility. part of that is knowing what you can or can't do legally. knowing firearm laws of the state you live in are paramount and the responsiblity of the owner of that firearm.

    i am not talking about training with that firearm, but i think that should be something a person should do as well.
     
  17. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't even agree with the necessity of the license. Let alone an instructor's opinion on further training.
     
  18. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i agree. i just think that a person should use some common sense and make the effort to at least learn the laws concerning their states firearms laws.

    an intructors opinion on further training is just that, an opinion.
     
  19. johnr1943

    johnr1943 New Member

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    I appreciate your call - otherwise a recipe for disaster...

    (Let's see, foot on someone's key chain? Doesn't sound like it worked for the rabbit.)
     
  20. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013