IPSC confusion

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by zhuk, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Not sure how many members here are into IPSC (dunno, IDPA might seem a better option for those Stateside), but I have a confusing dilemma. After trying out the XD 5" and finding the grip not as good as I'd remembered it & the recoil wasn't great for my increasingly dodgy wrist :( I managed to give the M&P a 2nd try...this time with the small backstrap. And damn if it didn't fit like a glove.

    Remembered some advice here previously that if I was going to go the Smith route, to stick with the Pro model as its trigger wasn't quite so uh, painful compared to the 9L stock...

    And I know gunshops have the MP in stock right now...unlike the HS which could be on a container ship anywhere between Croatia and here for all I know lol...guy at that range I went to didn't seem too optimistic about them getting here anytime soon.


    So, checking out the Pro's specs...the trigger is rated at anywhere between 4-5 lbs pull...and Production division states 5lbs min for the first shot. THEN I find the "official" list and the Pro IS mentioned :confused:

    Don't know what the hell to think now. If anyone has an idea why this discrepancy should be so, throw your .2c in. Otherwise please allow this thread to die it's dignified death :eek:
     
  2. Flint Rock

    Flint Rock New Member

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    I can offer no insights as to the rules of IPSC. I do have an M&P Pro that I often shoot in IDPA. I can say the gun was ready right out of the box. The sights and trigger were sweet. I know two guys who went the 9mm XDM route. Both had to send their guns off to a gunsmith and get the sights replaced and the trigger "worked" on. My friends got their XDM's cheaper than the M&P but after that gunsmith work and shipping back and forth, the XDM cost more than the M&P.
    I also sometimes shoot a Glock 34. That gun might also be one you should look at. There are some very smooth and fast shooters out there running the Glock 34 and 35.
     

  3. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Thanks for the reply Flint. Knew it was a bit of a long-shot question; I guess I was just (inevitably!) confusing myself via google & wondered if anyone had an idea...

    Does seem a bit weird how there seem to be two contradictory statements, I'm just going to have to have a bit of patience before I can ask someone in my club. Never been very good at patience, heh.


    As far as I know, 'trigger jobs' aren't allowed for IPSC Production (like most mods appear not to be either). IDPA seems to be more tolerant in areas like that & no min trigger pull either from what I've read. Of course, IDPA cannot be legal here as it's 'defensive orientated' :rolleyes:


    I would be interested in the XDm but the min barrel length in Aus is 5", and I'm afraid glocks feel like the proverbial "caulking gun" to my hands :p and all but the G17L are out anyway due .40 cal illegal evilness & a 10 rnd mag limit.


    Appreciate the reply though, I honestly though this obscure question would go unnoticed :D
     
  4. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Here in the States, the only time anyone really checks for compliance with the rules is during an "Area" match or higher level. Local matches are generally on the honor system. As long as you are not trying to shoot an STI, dot sighted, compensated barrel race gun in Production class you should be fine here. Check with your local club to see how strictly they "check" for compliance.
     
  5. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Uh.. normally the policy is "Don't ask, don't tell":)
     
  6. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    ^heh


    Sounds probably about right, robo. But there's been such a lot of political crap happening re our range atm (plus ongoing "issues" including a pending court case with the overseeing range lessee) that I think my club would be pretty toey about not doing everything 'by the book'. We only just got our pistol range time back after a 3 month hiatus due to a whole lot of spurious accusations...there would be those who are just waiting for us to 'slip up'. So yeah I wouldn't want to rock any boats on that score :rolleyes:

    Will definately ask our Secretary who runs the pistols comps this Saturday :)


    Many thanks for your replies guys.
     
  7. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Yeah not surprised, its pretty rule-heavy. We also had to read what seemed like a small book when being examined for the compulsory 'Safety and Holster Proficiency Course' - a mouthful in itself :p


    IDPA is not legal in Australia, due to its "defensive nature" (no possibility of encountering self-defense scenarios and real life encounters in this country - well not armed anyway lol) So unless you want to do Metallic Silhouette, ISSF or Cowboy Action revolver....it's IPSC or nothing.

    You can't legally possess a handgun just to go out and 'plink', you must be a competition shooter to have that necessary 'legal and genuine' reason.
     
  8. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    That is THE main reason I will not visit your country. What started as a penal / exile colony, should not be today.
     
  9. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    ...,you said penal ;)..heh

    Keep up the good fight zhuk! Show them that you can be a gun owner and not have rabies, plague and feel like your dog is telling you to do bad things (Though we know that the hound IS trying to influence you).

    Who knows, maybe one day they will find the magic tweezers that can remove that wild hair that has them blame inanimate objects for the actions of the people holding them.

    Oh, and I think they list the M&P as a 5# trigger for the use you are thinking about using it as. I'd imagine that if it weighed in a little low it would not be too much to get it to 5#
     
  10. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Actually, I think this was pretty much the genesis of the problem, why we have the difference in culture re guns today. Aroung 1790 the first gun control laws were enacted, 2 years after British settlement - you can hardly blame the Govt being a bit uh, leery of those (recently released) convicts having ready access to firearms :p

    So the country as a whole does not have the culture of widespread ownership, and will never do so. Its truly a mindset thing that you can't turn back the clock regarding, just as much as armed self defence is ingrained in the hearts of Americans. Bit more acceptance as a rural necessity for vermin control/putting down injured stock etc...but in urban areas? Not a chance. Which is why the sporting shooter is constantly up against it justifying our activities.

    I can't kid myself that we can ever be like the US here...there would never be the (even vaguely near enough) public support which would be necessary for the concept to fly.





    Hey we're giving it our best shot drum. All you can do is present some sort of reasoned argument to counter the cacophany of antis nonsense which the Greens etc spend so much time & $$ propagating. But its really a case of pushing sh1t uphill, ever since PM Howard's monumental scare-mongering efforts in the 90s...which considering his primary position in the nation, was pretty f*cking considerable! :mad:


    I DO of course live in hope that sense may prevail...you really have to think that. No matter what!


    As for the M&P...had a word with our club captain today; he reckons adjustable sights are the way to go, since I have to sight the gun in at 25m. I believe being a defensive/service pistol the factory would set them about 7m? I could use the Pro in Open Division (re sub-5lb trigger), but there's a lot more scope for Production comps. Plus, I'm used to 3-dot and would be more expense + god knows how much time to get the F/O-fixed swapped for dot sights. Pistol gunsmiths are pretty thin on the ground here.

    So, looks like the 9L will be it :) Going to check it out at the importer next Wed...will get the whole thing set up lefty (mag release) just to be sure re fit etc. Can forsee a sh1tload of dry firing in my future to work out that trigger lol

    (not complaining, mind :p)
     
  11. utf59

    utf59 New Member

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    Not to mention the spot of trouble they had recently had with some armed colonists in another part of the world. :D
     
  12. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    The U.S. side of IPSC is USPSA. We don't have the 5lb trigger minimum requirement that IPSC does, but we are limited to 10rds in the magazine. The Glock 34 is the current king of production in the US, but in Europe with the trigger pull rules, it is the CZ-75 Sp01 Shadow.
    I don't know if they are available to you or not zhuk, but you might want to give the CZ 75 Sp-01 or a Shadow a look. The IPSC 5 pound minimum is tested on the pull of the double action first shot since DA/SA pistols start with the hammer de-cocked.
    Tuned Shadows have a very smooth DA first shot pull around 6lb and subsequent SA pulls are around 2lbs and very crisp.
    That, a heavy all steel frame for recoil control, and a magazine capacity of 19rds has made it the production gun of choice internationally.

    Oh and for me, they point exactly like a 1911;)
    I've tried the XDm and the M&P pro but after trying a buddies Sp-01
    my soon to be new production setup is a CZ Shadow from the CZ Custom Shop. Just gotta save $$ for a couple more weeks:D
    [​IMG]
     
  13. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Thanks for that, Gate.

    Yeah we also have a 10-rnd mag limit - for civilian use, period. I have shot the CZ Shadow once, have to agree its a beautifully engineered pistol! And indeed I was more accurate with it too than the club USP I normally use, due to its weight. But my semi-dodgy wrist gave me grief afterwards :( so that's why I was going to go the strictly polymer route, and something which has low recoil if possible. To that end, why I'm leaning towards the M&P9L even with the trigger from hell lol - It just fits my (ridiculously small) hand the way nothing else does. I know S&W say the MP is DAO, but from the descriptions of the action I've read (partially cocked striker when racked, ala the Glock?) I'm not so sure :confused:

    Daresay whatever I choose there's going to be a significant break-in period...and I don't mean just for the gun :p Think its going to take a while to get used to something other than the club HK which I've been using for 1 year, and which has never really fit.

    In fact, today racks up exactly one year I've been licensed, which is a handy coincidence. About time I got my own firearm...while we can still have pistols, cos you never know!
     
  14. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    No problem, I just thought I'd mention it in case you hadn't seen one. You don't see too many CZ's being used over here.

    There are lots of things you can do to your 9L trigger to smooth it up. I've read alot of guys recommend getting a 9L and doing some trigger work yourself over the m&p pro. I've read some links before on DIY triggerjobs for the M&P or possibly you could install some drop in parts from Apex which look pretty easy to do (reads: hard to screw up:D)
    I've read that much of the "grit" in the pull has to do with the angle of the engagement edges of the firing pin block. You could re-profile/polish it yourself or install drop-in parts one at a time checking until you smooth it up and reach the 5lb mark.
    I'll see if I can find those links for ya.

    Oh and Happy anniversary!:cool:
     
  15. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Hey thanks mate!

    Had my own totally unexpected celebration of sorts today, by somehow managing to come first in my grade (B optics) during today's service rifle comp? Don't think anyone was more suprised by that than I was lol...particularly considering it was a 3 distance shoot (300/200/100m) in all 3 positions. Have to say the sling I received from Don here (one very kind dude!) played a large part in that :D


    On that trigger...hmm. From what Ive been able to ascertain (and finding really definitive info in straight language is like getting facts outta the Firearms Registry lol) trigger jobs aren't allowed in Production...I think. The rules state:


    I am going to definitively check on that though. The PTA (permit to acquire) hasn't hit my letterbox yet anyway...its been with the Registry 1 month so far, and as I haven't heared of it being knocked back, processing must be proceeding. One thing we always seem to have a lot of is time. You guys would defintely go nuts waiting so long to get your firearms :p



    Have read on an mp-forum that the trigger pull drops from its advertised 6 1/2 lbs to something like 5lbs, once you shoot the hell out of it for a while. Like the idea of that firing-block tweak though! I will have to find out what's allowed. Many thanks for all the info, Gate :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2010
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    With most triggers like any other mechanical device, they mut go through a "break in period". When people come to me seeking a trigger job on a firearm, my first question is "how many rounds have you fired through it?" If less than 500, I tell them to go shoot some more and come back when it is broken in. Almost everyone finds the trigger feels better after the break in period. The metal parts are smoothed and their trigger finger is stronger/trained better.
     
  17. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Hear you on that robo. Made the 70km round trip-trek to look at both the 9L & Pro today, and even though the pro's trigger is much nicer it has to be said, I'm really not sure about the fibre front sight; moved it around and found it a bit hard to track - or maybe I'm just used to 3-dots. I realise the standard trigger will smooth right out with use, so maybe that's the way to go.

    Found out that they would take a 9L trigger and swap it with the Pro's anyway, in order to get it up to Production-minimum 5lb legality....so any benefit you would get with the better trigger will be lost in any case :rolleyes:
     
  18. TraderJack

    TraderJack New Member

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    WOW! You fellas need to brush up on USPSA Rules!
    The limiting factor of rounds in the magazine are determined by the class you shoot in. Example - Single Stack is 8 rounds, Limited 10 is 10 rounds, etc.
    USPSA Rules
     
  19. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    Don't really know what your point is but in USPSA
    Single stack is 8rds if using major power factor, 10 if using minor power. Has to fit in "the box", and weigh no more than 43oz with mag inserted

    IPSC rules differ from USPSA.
    Examples of differences in production class would be 5lb trigger requirement in IPSC, none in USPSA
    15rd mag capacity in IPSC, 10 in USPSA

    Zhuk lives in Australia and is under IPSC Rules. Apparently though, Australian law does not allow mags with a capacity of more than 10 rounds in any handgun
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  20. zhuk

    zhuk New Member

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    Yeah the 10 round max limit is a whole lot of "fun", particularly on an extended stage. Why we gotta have 5-6 mags on hand (particularly if you are as crap as I tend to be lol)

    Not only a 5lb trigger requirement, but no trigger jobs allowed either. So no 'smoothing out' of that gritty stock version :rolleyes: Since I would have to forego the Pro's trigger & get the standard one installed instead anyway, I'm leaning towards the 9L now. Figure I can get a F/O front after the fact if I don't like the 3-dot novaks down the track.


    I was talking with our pistol RO last week, he was saying how much he missed being able to compete with the .40cal he had to give up; has had to use a .357 since (but apparently its just not the same). Even more painful was him relating how he had to lose his prized semi-auto rifles (can imagine how that must have hurt). Said the first time he shot in the club's service rifle comp after he lost them, he fired the first shot & went to let off the 2nd in a rapid...and "Damn! I forgot, the bolt!"

    I only lust after an AK that can never be - just think of how excruciating it would have been to have to prise one outta your grasp and hand it over to be crushed/melted :(