Iowa got me thinking

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by DarinCraft, Jan 1, 2011.

  1. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    This is pure speculation, because I live on the other side of the iron curtain.

    If for some reason every/any state were to make a u-turn and say not only is it legal to carry a loaded gun openly, it is encouraged, I think it would go through some morphological changes before it benefited the public.

    First, I think the antigunners would become more confrontational in their protests, because they could easily see a pro-gun person and would confront them in some Nancy Pelosi loud mouthed diatribe about how many babies are dead because of your gun.

    Secondly, violent crime would become more violent as criminals would shoot first, rob second not wanting to take a chance on getting shot themselves. The media would have a field day with this, reporting that the plan to reduce crime actually made it more violent. Can you imagine what the media will do with negligent discharges especially if someone gets hurt?

    I have no basis for this other than my limited experience with the public. I am by no means saying people should not be allowed to carry, this is just what I think would happen in the beginning, until the criminals start losing the war.

    Let me know what you think.
     
  2. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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    I am not a proponent of open carry. I think concealed carry is much more effective.

    BTW, Sacramento is now "Shall Issue".
     

  3. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle Member

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    I only disagree with the violent criminals becoming more violent. I don't see your average hood going through with a robbery of an openly armed person. They want to get your money/watch/shoes, not best you in a firefight. I DO think that negligent discharges, brandishing, and un-justified shootings would increase. Let's face it, there's a lot of stupid people out there, and Californians are a case study in stupid people.
     
  4. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    What do you mean, Sacramento? Do you mean the county sheriff in that county is pro-gun and acts as if it is "shall issue" or do you mean the metaphor for the whole state of Commufornia?

    The sheriffs farther south haven't gotten this message. Did something recently pass that I haven't heard about?
     
  5. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle Member

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    WHAT?! County or just city?
    Is that even feasible under CA law? I'm blown away here...
     
  6. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    It's not that Californians are more stupid than anyone else, they just get more media coverage...lol.

    My point was if for some reason (lets face it criminals are not smart) they did attempt to rob someone who is OC or maybe someone who is not and they just don't want to take the chance, they are might be more inclined to shoot their victim and rob them, rather than take the chance on just robbing them.

    You are definitely right, more people carrying=more people emotionally brandishing. Rookie cops are a great example of that.
     
  7. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    I know our Sheriff in Fresno is very liberal with CCW permits, she has pretty much turned their policy into a "shall issue."

    Edit: Open carry is a huge problem. I know Fresno PD is having some problems with these spoiled little starbucks commandos who found PC 12025/12031 and decided it's cool to carry an unloaded Glock while they drink coffee. Problem is, the little turds are getting jacked for their guns by the dirtbags who are carrying loaded guns.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  8. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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    Not to hijack, but in the last election, both candidates for Sheriff stated that they will honor shall issue. I am not going to apply because I don't want to be denied because the Sheriff's secretary is having a bad day. I'll wait until we move back to the States.

    Here's the deal. I highlighted the doublespeak part:

    Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department
    Concealed Weapons Permit Issuance
    and Application Process​

    Self-defense may be considered good cause for the issuance of a permit, however, each application is unique and the Sheriff retains the ability to deny permit applications where it appears that doing so is in the interest of public safety.

    Issuance Criteria For Consideration Pursuant to California Penal Code § 12050:

    * Proof that the person applying is of good moral character
    * Proof that good cause exists for the issuance
    * Proof that the person applying is a resident of the county or a city within the county or spends a substantial period of time in the applicant's principal place of employment or business in the county or a city within the county.
    * Proof that the person applying has completed, at least, a 16-hour course of training including instruction on firearm safety and the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm
    * Proof of no statutory prohibitions

    Conditions After Issuance of Approved Permits:

    * Annual qualification with the weapon(s)/type(s) listed on the permit and safety inspection of each weapon specifically listed on the permit.
    * Prior to renewal, permit holders must complete a legal firearms update refresher course from a Sheriff’s Department approved training facility/instructor, every other year.
    * Permit holders must report to the Sacramento Sheriff’s Department within 10 days of any arrest of the permit holder.
    * No illegal drug use.


    Violations of these conditions will result in the revocation of the concealed
    weapons permit.

    Restrictions Applicable to All Sacramento Sheriff’s Department Permit Holders
    (Permit invalid if violated)

    * While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is permitted.
    * No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
    * No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.
    * The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.

    New Application Fees:
    $20.00 filing fee (check or money order only) made payable to the County of
    Sacramento. Non refundable.
    Fees-After Approval of New Application:
    $80.00 fee for all new approved applicants upon issuance of the concealed weapon permit. Check or money order only, made payable to County of Sacramento.

    Additional fees are also required by the State of California Department of Justice for fingerprinting, criminal history clearance, and firearms eligibility. $122.00 payable to State of California. (Subject to change).
    Fees for Renewals of Existing Permits:
    $52.00 State of California renewal fee (check or money order only) made payable to the Department of Justice. (Subject to change). $25.00 renewal fee (check or money order only) made payable to the County of Sacramento.
    All renewal and newly approved applicants are processed on Tuesdays only
    at:

    Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department
    711 G Street
    Sacramento, CA 95814
    9:00 AM – 11:00 AM ONLY

    Denial of Application/Appeals Process:
    All applicants will receive notice in writing regarding the approval or denial of their application. Applicants who are denied a concealed weapons permit will be advised of the reason for the denial.
    Applicants may appeal if their application for a permit is denied. All appeals must be submitted in writing to:

    Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department
    Attention: Gun Permits
    711 G Street
    Sacramento, CA 95814

    Written appeals should be specific, clearly outlining the applicant’s rebuttal to the reason stated for denial. Additional information, which may be pertinent to the applicants request for a permit should also be included. Note: Appeals must be received by the Sheriff’s Department no later than (30) thirty days from the date of the notification letter.
    Additional Information:
    For additional information or questions regarding the Sacramento Sheriff’s Departments concealed weapons permit process, please contact the Special Investigations/Intelligence Bureau at (916) 874-5371 or E-Mail Amber Wong at awong@sacsheriff.com
     
  9. JonM

    JonM Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    that hasnt happened in open carry states.

    people that take an interest in carrying a weapon daily ccw or openly i think tend to be more familiar with their firearm and actively go shooting more than your average officer of the law.

    personally i wouldnt open carry it just makes you a target. if a criminal is gonna shoot he is gonna take out the guy with the hogleg in the open first. in wiscosin we can atm open carry for the last year or so. i have yet to see a single person doing it. i know they are out there i just havent personaly seen it.

    im not against open carry im all for it. i just think its tactically a stupid thing to do.
     
  10. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    You just confirmed my point.
     
  11. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle Member

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    I agree that concealed carry is a superior option for the civilian, but when in Rome, take what the Romans will let you have :D
    I just don't see criminals conducting their trade against an armed populace. The whole criminal/victim dynamic is the same as the predator/prey dynamic. If you aren't prey, predators will go elsewhere, if you aren't a victim, criminals will go elsewhere. Criminals may be stupid, but most are not psychopaths. I think very few would be SO determined to rob a particular group of people that they'd set about killing the armed ones to get to the unarmed ones' wallets. The few who WOULD behave that way ARE psychopaths, and would probably kill someone anyway.
    As for the Sac concealed carry, have they also done away with the psych testing etc. that most counties require? IIRC, there was a whole lot more to the application hold-ups than only the just-cause requirements.
     
  12. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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    I dunno Daggle. I haven't pursued it and don't intend to.
     
  13. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Never heard of that...that is a pretty expensive proposition if a county is requiring applicants to go through the MMPI testing. I know in Fresno, Alameda, Stanislaus, San Joaquin and Madera Counties there is no requirement for this. They only require "just cause" and since this is so subjective, Sheriff's basically can make it a shall issue translation.
     
  14. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle Member

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    At least here in SB county (and I thought elsewhere) the 'good moral character' can be pretty much whatever the sheriff wants it to be, he can polygraph you on anything he doesn't believe, he can demand psych evals from any applicant without justification, and the psych is at the applicants expense.
    I've skimmed over some of the PDF stuff on Calguns, and it seemed like all the hoops that were available to all CA sheriff's were pretty much standard practice.
    Maybe I should quit being so pessimistic and read back over it :D

    edit: so you're right, 'require' was incorrect, I was being a party pooper
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  15. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Thats why I stay away from CalGuns...but in regard to your point about good moral character, you're right. That is just as subjective as "just cause." It allows the more liberal to be..well,..more liberal and visa versa. If a Sheriff want people to pay $450 a whack for MMPI then the law can support it. Likewise if a Sheriff is a huge 2A supporter they can say every person who no criminal record can carry concealed.

    Fortunately I live in a farming community Conservative stronghold and our Sheriff is no exception.
     
  16. TheDaggle

    TheDaggle Member

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    Our Sheriff is a turd :mad:
    Permits are essentially unheard of here. If you go to the SD's website, there isn't even anything about CCW. It's so rare there's no point in providing info, it doesn't apply to anyone. Their site actually suggests defending yourself with a stick *insert facepalm here*.
    Bill Brown's own dept. can't stand him. Maybe it's not democratic of me, but if the officers you want to manage don't support your candidacy, it's time to step aside.
     
  17. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Quoted for truth