There are parts on the form that deal with mental health
In between a ban, and nothing
I have no doubt that everyone here thinks that banning guns or certain guns won't solve out current issues with all these people getting shot. But part of me says SOMETHING should b done. There is an article on Newser this morning that says we should have a national registry on guns AND ammo. No ban or restrictions on anything we can currently have. I say this is a very slippery slope to the govt. banning and/or collecting any and all guns & ammo.
How about something in between? I never hear anyone talk about the crazy people. When I buy a gun, there is nothing in the form, or on the background check about whether I'm crazy, been institutionalized, have a mental health background issue, or anything. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) Why? Would that be so hard to add that in to the paperwork and BG check? That would be basically the same as them checking you for felonies; if you're not supposed to have one anyway, oh well......tough. That way, the rest of us with no issues would not have our privacy infringed upon.
This is actually the basis, (I think), of my wife's anti-gun stance. Someone she knew with some apparent mental issues legally bought a gun and killed herself. Now, this would probably not solve the problem, or weed out every mentally unstable person, but it might be a good start.
How about something in between? I never hear anyone talk about the crazy people. When I buy a gun, there is nothing in the form, or on the background check about whether I'm crazy, been institutionalized, have a mental health background issue, or anything. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) Why? Would that be so hard to add that in to the paperwork and BG check? That would be basically the same as them checking you for felonies; if you're not supposed to have one anyway, oh well......tough. That way, the rest of us with no issues would not have our privacy infringed upon.
This is actually the basis, (I think), of my wife's anti-gun stance. Someone she knew with some apparent mental issues legally bought a gun and killed herself. Now, this would probably not solve the problem, or weed out every mentally unstable person, but it might be a good start.
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
simple answer, protect our precious children as well as we protect our Senators! No use in shirking our responsibility to them by passing meaningless legislation that doesn't prevent crime at all.
You cant possibly believe that limiting 100% of legal and reasonable Firearms Owners Present and Future will prevent anything except free enterprise. On the other hand, any Ban of any type will raise the values of any existing weapons that pass the grandfather clause or get smuggled in by Organized Crime and other Parasites that cant and wont read or follow laws written on paper.
Any proposition that doesnt expand/ make use of and take advantage of the purposefulness of a growing interest in responsible firearms ownership to protect our children and our futures is just hogwash and meaningless BS. We are the front line defenders against sick bastards intent in evil destruction, not the cops that are 15 minutes at best from any call to "911"...
You cant possibly believe that limiting 100% of legal and reasonable Firearms Owners Present and Future will prevent anything except free enterprise. On the other hand, any Ban of any type will raise the values of any existing weapons that pass the grandfather clause or get smuggled in by Organized Crime and other Parasites that cant and wont read or follow laws written on paper.
Any proposition that doesnt expand/ make use of and take advantage of the purposefulness of a growing interest in responsible firearms ownership to protect our children and our futures is just hogwash and meaningless BS. We are the front line defenders against sick bastards intent in evil destruction, not the cops that are 15 minutes at best from any call to "911"...
You obviously aren't reading the form that you fill-out to buya firearm or it has been so long since you bought a gun that you don't remember. It is the 3rd or 4th question down about whether you've been institutionalized in the past 5 years. It is right near the question about illegal drug use.I have no doubt that everyone here thinks that banning guns or certain guns won't solve out current issues with all these people getting shot. But part of me says SOMETHING should b done. There is an article on Newser this morning that says we should have a national registry on guns AND ammo. No ban or restrictions on anything we can currently have. I say this is a very slippery slope to the govt. banning and/or collecting any and all guns & ammo.
How about something in between? I never hear anyone talk about the crazy people. When I buy a gun, there is nothing in the form, or on the background check about whether I'm crazy, been institutionalized, have a mental health background issue, or anything. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) Why? Would that be so hard to add that in to the paperwork and BG check? That would be basically the same as them checking you for felonies; if you're not supposed to have one anyway, oh well......tough. That way, the rest of us with no issues would not have our privacy infringed upon.
This is actually the basis, (I think), of my wife's anti-gun stance. Someone she knew with some apparent mental issues legally bought a gun and killed herself. Now, this would probably not solve the problem, or weed out every mentally unstable person, but it might be a good start.
First- you REALLY need to go read that form 4473 you signed. It DOES ask if you have been adjudged mentally incompetent. And if you have, THAT information was supposed to have been placed in the record system, and an Insta-Check inquiry would have resulted in a DENIED response.
Second- a registry. To what end? 93% of criminal acts with a firearm are performed by people that ALREADY cannot legally own a firearm. This is sort of like saying "We have a problem with people driving on a revoked license. So we want all of you to register your cars." One group has nothing to do with the other.
Third- registries have this nasty habit of becoming a means of confiscation of firearms. Why, no- we don't want to confiscate your firearms- we just want to know where they are." Tell THAT to the folks in CA that had their legal, registered semi autos BANNED by the state.
Second- a registry. To what end? 93% of criminal acts with a firearm are performed by people that ALREADY cannot legally own a firearm. This is sort of like saying "We have a problem with people driving on a revoked license. So we want all of you to register your cars." One group has nothing to do with the other.
Third- registries have this nasty habit of becoming a means of confiscation of firearms. Why, no- we don't want to confiscate your firearms- we just want to know where they are." Tell THAT to the folks in CA that had their legal, registered semi autos BANNED by the state.
Be careful what you wish for. You'd be surprised how easy it is for someone to become mentally ill. You may think you're immune to mental illness, but I'll tell you right now - you're not.How about something in between? I never hear anyone talk about the crazy people. When I buy a gun, there is nothing in the form, or on the background check about whether I'm crazy, been institutionalized, have a mental health background issue, or anything. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) Why? Would that be so hard to add that in to the paperwork and BG check? That would be basically the same as them checking you for felonies; if you're not supposed to have one anyway, oh well......tough. That way, the rest of us with no issues would not have our privacy infringed upon.
I am more than happy to support any gun control measures that will reduce crime.
Unfortunately, most gun control has the reverse effect. Disarming law abiding citizens seems to not deter criminals.
The laws we have work as well as they can. I support background checks for FFL transactions, I support forcing felons to not legally owning firearms, I support making people take a basic course if they want to carry, etc.
Some laws are pointless, not going to cover those.
"Compromise" is not something I'm against. However, why compromise on the current proposals that would do NOTHING to have stopped any of the recent spree killers.
Unfortunately, most gun control has the reverse effect. Disarming law abiding citizens seems to not deter criminals.
The laws we have work as well as they can. I support background checks for FFL transactions, I support forcing felons to not legally owning firearms, I support making people take a basic course if they want to carry, etc.
Some laws are pointless, not going to cover those.
"Compromise" is not something I'm against. However, why compromise on the current proposals that would do NOTHING to have stopped any of the recent spree killers.
You're missing the point completely!!!!
Newton- guns aquired illegally!
Columbine- same thing!
This moron who shot the firemen, same thing!
These ghetto fabulous gang bangers, same thing!
The vast majority of gun crime is by weapons aquired Illegally.
The morons in charge know this, and know they can keep guns out of their hands just as easy as they can keep them from getting pot, or crack.
They can't.
They do not care one lick. They want to attack at the 2A until its eroded and gone.
Do yourself a favor. Go to all the liberal forums you can today, and read the gun threads.
They openly view gun owners as nuts, the NRA as nuts. They hate firearms in the hands of lawful gun owners, because in their eyes, gun owners are *******, right wing, God fearing, homosexual hating, racist bigots.
They want you disarmed because every gun owner to them is the thing in their mind they hate most.
Seriously, go to some liberal forums and read. This is not about solving gun violence at all, it's about a group they hate and despise with every breath they take.
Newton- guns aquired illegally!
Columbine- same thing!
This moron who shot the firemen, same thing!
These ghetto fabulous gang bangers, same thing!
The vast majority of gun crime is by weapons aquired Illegally.
The morons in charge know this, and know they can keep guns out of their hands just as easy as they can keep them from getting pot, or crack.
They can't.
They do not care one lick. They want to attack at the 2A until its eroded and gone.
Do yourself a favor. Go to all the liberal forums you can today, and read the gun threads.
They openly view gun owners as nuts, the NRA as nuts. They hate firearms in the hands of lawful gun owners, because in their eyes, gun owners are *******, right wing, God fearing, homosexual hating, racist bigots.
They want you disarmed because every gun owner to them is the thing in their mind they hate most.
Seriously, go to some liberal forums and read. This is not about solving gun violence at all, it's about a group they hate and despise with every breath they take.
What is really disgusting is that whenever the NRA suggests gun free zones contribute to these killings they are accused of using the deaths of innocents to further their agenda.This is not about solving gun violence at all, it's about a group they hate and despise with every breath they take.
I'm watching gun control advocates practically dancing on the graves of these children to push their agenda and they get a free pass.
I'm thoroughly disgusted at how they are capitalizing on this crisis to introduce legislation that would have no effect except to erode our rights. Somehow this is ok because it is "for the children".
Introduce something that will actually protect my kids and I'll support it. Otherwise they can take a long walk off a short pier.
The media doesn't get a free ride. Gun controversy gives them a distraction from the real issues. Not to mention most of the media moguls have an anti gun agenda. The media is just being loyal to it's best customer, the political machine.What is really disgusting is that whenever the NRA suggests gun free zones contribute to these killings they are accused of using the deaths of innocents to further their agenda.
I'm watching gun control advocates practically dancing on the graves of these children to push their agenda and they get a free pass.
I'm thoroughly disgusted at how they are capitalizing on this crisis to introduce legislation that would have no effect except to erode our rights. Somehow this is ok because it is "for the children".
Introduce something that will actually protect my kids and I'll support it. Otherwise they can take a long walk off a short pier.
Read through the list and see how many of the tactics have already appeared in the "debate" on gun control.What is really disgusting is that whenever the NRA suggests gun free zones contribute to these killings they are accused of using the deaths of innocents to further their agenda.
I'm watching gun control advocates practically dancing on the graves of these children to push their agenda and they get a free pass.
I'm thoroughly disgusted at how they are capitalizing on this crisis to introduce legislation that would have no effect except to erode our rights. Somehow this is ok because it is "for the children".
Introduce something that will actually protect my kids and I'll support it. Otherwise they can take a long walk off a short pier.
The end for them is elimination of the 2A and they will exploit anyone and use lies, deceit and corruption to get there...never forget that.1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."
2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.
3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)
4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."
6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."
7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."
8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."
9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."
10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."
11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."
12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...
"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'
"One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." (pps.127-134)
In Oregon they ask about mental healthclr8ter said:I have no doubt that everyone here thinks that banning guns or certain guns won't solve out current issues with all these people getting shot. But part of me says SOMETHING should b done. There is an article on Newser this morning that says we should have a national registry on guns AND ammo. No ban or restrictions on anything we can currently have. I say this is a very slippery slope to the govt. banning and/or collecting any and all guns & ammo.
How about something in between? I never hear anyone talk about the crazy people. When I buy a gun, there is nothing in the form, or on the background check about whether I'm crazy, been institutionalized, have a mental health background issue, or anything. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) Why? Would that be so hard to add that in to the paperwork and BG check? That would be basically the same as them checking you for felonies; if you're not supposed to have one anyway, oh well......tough. That way, the rest of us with no issues would not have our privacy infringed upon.
This is actually the basis, (I think), of my wife's anti-gun stance. Someone she knew with some apparent mental issues legally bought a gun and killed herself. Now, this would probably not solve the problem, or weed out every mentally unstable person, but it might be a good start.
Form 4473.
Question 11. f. Have you ever been adjudicated mental defective(which includes a determination by a court,board,commission,or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourselfor to othersor are incompetent to manage your own affairs) Or have you ever been commited to a mental institution?
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
Question 11. f. Have you ever been adjudicated mental defective(which includes a determination by a court,board,commission,or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourselfor to othersor are incompetent to manage your own affairs) Or have you ever been commited to a mental institution?
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
Yeah, I've been thinking about the mental health question all morning since I posted. My mistake. I have not memorized the form. But, I was truly not aware that was in the check when it was called in. Medical records are still private, or no? Does this go on just court rulings? If so, not every mentally ill person goes through the court system, I would imagine. I assumed certain people would just lie........it also asks if you've ever renounced your citizenship. (I don't know if they mean officially on another form, or just saying it to people.) If you had just talked about it, you could just lie. Basically, I do not know where the info comes from and goes to.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not really for any gun control. If this facet of people has already been covered, cool. I was just not aware they had been.
C3shooter - I agree with you that a national registry is not a solution. The idea was not mine, it was in the article. And I addressed your third point, that it's a very slippery slope to confiscation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not really for any gun control. If this facet of people has already been covered, cool. I was just not aware they had been.
C3shooter - I agree with you that a national registry is not a solution. The idea was not mine, it was in the article. And I addressed your third point, that it's a very slippery slope to confiscation.
Registration is the first step to confiscation.
Good point- and if you have not been involved with this, would be an unknown. Yes, health records are still private. HOWEVER- a person that has been ADJUDICATED (root word in there is JUDGE) mentally incompetent is not a medical issue, it is a legal one- and THAT goes into the Insta-Check database.
What is the difference?
A. I am a roadie for a rock band. During a road tour, there is a fire in the club. Lots of people die, including some of my best friends that are my co-workers. I get very upset at going into the next club to set up for a performance, and decide to seek some counseling. I get it. That is NOT being adjudicated mentally incompetent.
B. I am a roadie for a rock band. I have become convinced that the guy that drives the bus is one of Satan's helpers. I break into a performance screaming at the audience to run before Bernie (the driver) eats their souls.
I am tackled by security. The local police transport me to the Community mental health intake facility, where I am held for observation. The psychiatrist reports to the court that I am nuttier than extra crunchy peanut butter. Court orders that I be committed for treatment. THAT is adjudication.
Seeking help in times of extreme trouble is not insanity- it is a sign of a healthy mind. I have been involved in planning and conducting crisis management operations, and that is always included as part of the "after action". I will bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the folks that handled the bio-hazard cleanup at the Aurora theatre and the CT school (does not happen on its own, y'know) have arrangements for counselors for the workers that have the grim business of cleanup.
What is the difference?
A. I am a roadie for a rock band. During a road tour, there is a fire in the club. Lots of people die, including some of my best friends that are my co-workers. I get very upset at going into the next club to set up for a performance, and decide to seek some counseling. I get it. That is NOT being adjudicated mentally incompetent.
B. I am a roadie for a rock band. I have become convinced that the guy that drives the bus is one of Satan's helpers. I break into a performance screaming at the audience to run before Bernie (the driver) eats their souls.
I am tackled by security. The local police transport me to the Community mental health intake facility, where I am held for observation. The psychiatrist reports to the court that I am nuttier than extra crunchy peanut butter. Court orders that I be committed for treatment. THAT is adjudication.
Seeking help in times of extreme trouble is not insanity- it is a sign of a healthy mind. I have been involved in planning and conducting crisis management operations, and that is always included as part of the "after action". I will bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the folks that handled the bio-hazard cleanup at the Aurora theatre and the CT school (does not happen on its own, y'know) have arrangements for counselors for the workers that have the grim business of cleanup.
JP- I see you read Saul Alinsky! 
Understand your opponent.
Understand your opponent.
Try buying a firearm in New Jersey!
and then crush him like a cockroach...have read Tzu, Halsey (native son of New JerseyJP- I see you read Saul Alinsky!
Understand your opponent.
) and Patton as well. 1 - 19 of 19 Posts
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