Immediately Post SHTF Question

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by BigByrd47119, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    Here is something I have been wondering about. I may be way off and feel free to let me know if I am, but here goes...

    Immediately following your deployment of your concealed firearm in defense of your life, what do you do? It is my understanding that in "theory," LEO's are supposed to provide medical attention if possible after making proper notifications. Does this same process seem a reasonable thing for a civilian?

    Of course if your not a LEO its hard to expect someone to respond like one. But would it reflect positively on you to provide CPR in this situation or would it make it appear that perhaps you weren't that distressed over the situation?

    I'm not suggesting that in a life-or-death situation I would be able to function in that manner, but I thought it would be worth asking everyone's take.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Shut-up ;)?
     
  2. pagj17

    pagj17 New Member

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    If I've shot the guy and he's still breathing, I'll provide the medical attention that I can. If they're dead they'll have to stay that way though.
     

  3. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    If you have to shoot somebody the proper thing to do is make sure hes dead -
     
  4. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Active Member

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    Read this: http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f17/read-before-you-decide-carry-11962/
     
  5. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Unless you are certified in some sort of first aid/CPR there is not much you can be expected to do except CALL! Call 911 to get the help on the way. You shot the individual, not to kill but A) to live. And B) to stop. You succeeded. CONGRATULATIONS! Summon the aid he may need.
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Robo ia absolutely X ring in this one. As far as the "make sure he is dead" school of thought, once the threat has passed, further actions that you take will be viewed in a different light- by a jury.

    Ask the pharmacist that reloaded and shot the unconcious robber lying on the floor.
     
  7. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Step 1: End the threat.

    Step 2: Assess if the threat has actually ended (no other attackers or potential attackers).

    Step 3: Call 911 (Ask for police AND ambulance EVEN if you believe the subject to be dead, this shows compassionate action even to someone who placed you in IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM)

    Step 4: Identify witnesses IF there are any.

    Step 5: Take steps to locate and secure the attacker's weapon WITHOUT touching it. If you have to kick it away from the downed attacker's hand, do so, but only far enough to be out of their reach, yet where YOU can retain total control of that weapon.

    Step 6: Ask the witnesses if THEY are okay. This is of paramount importance as YOU need to be seen as the good guy at this point! Typically while you are scanning for additional threats, you should be asking "Are you okay?". Let's face it, you are a person whom they have just seen gun down another human being. You want their impression of you to be as that of "Guy In White Hat". Asking if they are okay cannot be construed in any negative light. You are STILL holding a deadly weapon, at the ready, and you do NOT want them to feel threatened by you or your gun in ANY way! You want them to feel as though YOU are still "protecting them too".

    Step 7: Render aid as you are able, however, do so ONLY if you can do so in total safety to yourself or bystanders. The reality is, you have already summoned QUALIFIED medical help, unless you are a doctor, trauma trained nurse, EMT, or Boy Scout First Aid badge recipient, a case could be made that you acted negligently in your botched efforts at first aid (yeah I know, but it has been made an issue in court before).

    When officers arrive on scene, make sure you COMPLY with all their instructions and I mean RIGHT NOW! Even if you find yourself in cuffs and stuffed into a cruiser. BE COMPLIANT. Make sure you cooperate JUST ENOUGH to show YOU as the victim, then HUSH.

    "Officer...that man over there pulled a knife/gun/bat/whatever weapon, and tried to stab/shoot/bludgeon me to death. I was FORCED TO FIRE IN SELF DEFENSE. I want to cooperate fully, but I am really shaken up right now, and I don't think I should say any more until I have an attorney here to advise me."

    I have read where someone suggested that you ask for medical assistance for yourself by feigning chest pains or other distress to avoid talking to officers...this is complete hogwash and BAD BAD BAD advice. When you get to the ER and the doc finds you are physically fine, though shaken, you have just TOLD YOUR FIRST LIE during an investigation. Oh by the way...that is OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, and LYING TO AN OFFICER, and once a liar, always a liar. You will NEVER get your credibility back.

    By simply telling the officer you are shaken, which you WILL be, I know this because I had to tell brother officers this during a line of duty shooting and it WAS TRUE, and that you want to excercise your right to have your attorney present to avoid making any mistakes, you are not in any way compromising your position as an honest actor in a bad situation.

    Hopefully you will never have to go through it. Remember, cops with ANY street smarts and experience WILL see through BS. Don't BS them.
     
  8. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    I would think contacting 911 is the FIRST thing you do. They might direct you to provide some sort of care but contacting 911 is more important IMO. When you call 911 you are helping to prove that you are on the right side of the law and it was not a murder you just committed.
     
  9. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Well...yeah-ish...calling 911 is step 3 in the use of force continuum. You must end the threat, and make sure it is ended before you can safely call 911. I know it is nitpicky...but in all reality...stuff like this comes down to nitpicks...that what lawyers are, paid nitpickers.

    You are under no obligation to compromise your safety further by rendering aid if you can't do so safely, and if other threats persist, you can't do it. By calling 911 and summoning help, you have actually done all you can REASONABLY be expected to do. It would be great if you COULD do something to help, but you may not be able to.

    I would render aid as I was able to, but that is an on the spot decision.
     
  10. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    Wow, thanks for all the replies!

    So allow me to refine a bit here.

    1. I am CPR/ First-Aid certified
    2. Would you personally feel a moral obligation to provide medical treatment to the best of your ability if the opportunity presented itself within the confines of this general scenario?
    3. Any forseeable legal ramifications going either way?

    I appreciate everyones input and advise. I am well awair of what is typically accepted protocol in these situations, which is why I thought this may be an interesting variable.
     
  11. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    1. CPR on a sucking chest would...really not worth the effort in my opinion. You are into possibly contaminated blood (AIDS, HEP C, etc etc etc).

    2. NO, I would definitely NOT feel morally obligated to render aid in this situation. Number one, YOU didn't create the situation. You reacted to a situation that was created by your assailant. YOU did not choose to shoot someone when you woke up this morning. You, I am assuming, chose to go about your day, doing as little damage long the way as you could. YOU shot to STOP a threat, you didn't shoot to KILL, or MAIM, or WOUND, or WARN. You were forced to engage in a defensive action to save your life. The choice was made when you were chosen as a victim, and the scumbag lost the bet. A first responder or a police officer has an obligation to render that aid which can be rendered (though in AZ an officer is NOT obligated to perform medical aid and in some departments is specifically prohibited from doing so unless it is in aid of another officer or first responder). The act of calling for medical assistance from 911 IS enough. You called the pros, your number one job is to survive.

    3. Yes, there COULD be legal ramifications if you try to render aid and botch it in some way. If you do NOT render hands-on aid but call the professionals you have "Aided the attacker I was forced to shoot by calling professional help who is trained to deal with and who has experience in treating traumatic injury of this type."

    Said another way "I have some very basic CPR and first aid knowledge, but I have no experience with this, and I believed anything I would do might make his/her injuries worse."

    Or another way: "There was so much blood, and I didn't know if he has AIDS or some other blood borne pathogen, and I am not a medic, and not equipped to protect myself against that kind of threat as well."

    You are under NO obligation to further risk your health, safety, or life in rendering aid to one who has forced you to defend yourself against.

    All that being said....IF you can do so in COMPLETE safety, and I do mean COMPLETE safety...help out if you can. The compassionate part of my nature will still try to help. But the reality is, by calling 911 you HAVE rendered aid by calling the pros.

    There is so much crap on the 'net posted by 'net commandos who know what they know about SD and post SD survival from snippets in magazines. What I know, I learned after 22+ years on the street carrying a badge. I learned sitting for endless hours in court rooms. I learned by endless hours of depositions, during lawsuits that are almost automatic in a use of force by an officer.

    It's critical that you survive first. Secure the weapon. Ascertain the condition of witnesses, then call 911. Remember...part of surviving the incident is the post-critical-incident survival. How you handle the first interaction with responding officers will determine whether or not you ever get to court.
     
  12. Rarity

    Rarity New Member

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    Totally agreed. Although, when calling 911 and them finding out you shot someone in your home, outside ect,

    It is recommended that you DO, or atleast that is what i would do. Last thing I need is for the police drawing on me, or the judge thinking I am a threat to the public if it ever does go that far.

    Actually, 20 minutes after the incident, you can be in your bed sleeping with the AC on drinking a nice cold beer. Before all is said and done, you get a nice pat on the back!

    Not saying you should give a sh*t about the bad guy.
     
  13. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    A "violent and tumultous entry" into your home, I.e. a home invasion is by nature a violent act, and therefore deadly force IS immediately justified. One can reasonably assume at the moment your door crahes in, one is in IMMINENT DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARML
    ". You need not see a weapon to believe you are in danger. In AZ you have zero obligation to retreat or escape, especially in your own home and its curtilage. So, you are correct about being done and over with on scene. It WILL take longer than 20 minutes...but you can expect not to have to go "downtown".


    If one actually follows the trends in crime stats...home invasions lead to violent assault/rape/murder or attempted murder in incredibly high percentages. A reasonable person would be a fool to believe that a home invasion is NOT a situation where lethal force is not justified and correct.

    Even here in the country, I keep my doors locked at all times. I am always armed (yes, even in my home) and answer the door with my SD firearm handy. After dark, especially, it is in my hand (though discreetly behind my back) if I am not expecting visitors.

    My daughter doesn't answer the door. Our two landsharks are always there first at any rate. My house isn't one that would make an attractive target anyway...but who says scumbags are smart.
     
  14. MrWray

    MrWray New Member

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    I agree with u 100% arizonalawman, i spent from 2000 to 2009 as a lawman myself. Ive been on 2 different special response teams and consider myself pretty well trained. Ive noticed that our awareness skills are more honed in than other peoples because of the way we are trained as well as the things we do in the field. Not saying that other people are stupid, just my awareness zone always stays in the orange on a regular basis. If im at home and my door gets kicked in im not waiting to see who it is first,wonder why they are there, or even care if they are inside or just standing at the door threshold. They will have a bad day needless to say
     
  15. 97cobra

    97cobra New Member

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    Excellent point. Can't fix dead.
     
  16. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    I have sought training from the best on my own dime, as well as having been a trainer for over 15 years. Yet...I still don't claim to be an "expert". I leave the claims of being an expert to the dime store commandos, and self promoting trainers, and range monkeys. What I DO claim to know is that I survived 22 years carrying a badge, working narcotics, gangs, homicide, and robbery details, as well as a brief stint in my wasted youth as a SWAT officer. I have to have SOMETHING on the ball, and something to offer.

    When I make an observation, or lay out an opinion, it isn't the culmination of all the articles I have read in "Whaterver Gun Rag Of The Month". It is what I learned from all those years on the street, in court, watching autopsies, investigating homicides, filling body bags with dead hood rats and gang bangers who died of terminal stupid, and from older, wiser, more street savvy cops than myself. I was an FTO raising baby cops to adulthood trying to teach them all they would need to make it home alive every night in a compressed 45-60 day rotation with me on the night shift. "Super, I am glad you learned all that cool stuff in the academy, now let me show you what you need to know on the street." was my standard answer to "Gee Sarge, they said in the academy that ____________."

    So, yeah, I kow what you're getting at. If the was ONE thing that I could get across to folks who carry is how to OPEN YOUR EYES. See all that is around you. I mean, "see" it so you could testify about it. Once you start to see things in that fashion, you are damned difficult to surprise.

    The door splintering in on your home is NOT a time for deep reflection on whether or not you need a new door, or if the wind is a-blowin'. It's time for you to be on target on high center chest on the first scumbag through that splintered door.

    Also...folks...you NEED to make a plan in your home. Wargame the heck out of it. Look for all those places where YOU could hide if you were a nasty old burglar. Wait until everyone is alseep in your house, then walk through it. Get a feel for every sound the house makes. Every noise that should be there. Look for shadows where a boogie man can hide.

    Practice slicing the pie with a training gun or even your fingers like we did when we were kids. Learn how to move through your house. I can tell you, as a cop, I HATED clearing a structure. I did it, but man, it SUCKS like a big lollipop...you don't know where everything is, and you are trying to find Mr. Bad Guy. It's nice in the days of well trained landsharks and K9 teams....I am all for letting the dog go in first. Because I can't tell you how many times I would up with the hole in the end of the gun thing pointed at ME by a brother officer. It happens.

    Damn....too much coffee...I just got all wordy again.
     
  17. Gh0zt36

    Gh0zt36 Active Member

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    Thats against everything I was taught in CCW class. they taught my class to
    " shoot to stop the threat " If that means shoot the perp in the shooting side shoulder and then disarm him if possible then thats what you do. We were taught killing someone is THE last thing you should do unless you feel its your only option. was my instructor wrong?
     
  18. armsmaster270

    armsmaster270 New Member

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    The one on duty shooting I was involved in I immediately called for an ambulance and assistance moved his weapon out of his reach. cuffed him behind his back, felt his carotoid for pulse, none found, waited for the cavalry to arrive. Preserved the scene.
     
  19. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Perfectly executed. We were also trained to restrain. As an officer, you will have cuffs. As an armed civilian...chances are you won't. I still carry a set of cuffs in my "go everywhere bag"...and I am guessing you do too.

    As for the CCW instructor who advocated shooting the gun arm and disarming the subject...he ought to have his cert pulled. What asshattery. All he's doing is telling people to get killed or sued. If a lethal shot is not justified, a warning shot or "shot to wound" certainly is not justified and may very well be considered attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.

    "So, Mr. Jones...you fired a shot at your alleged attacker to wound him? Mr. Jones, I would assert to the court that if you were only shooting to wound, you didn't really believe you were in mortal danger. You weren't were you?"

    And so it would go with a DA looking for a political notch on his belt.
     
  20. Gh0zt36

    Gh0zt36 Active Member

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    Interesting point of view.. see , it's really a shame there isn't a standardized CCW class instead of just different instructors points of view. cause at the time his point sounded solid. which was you want to stop the assault only because you wouldn't want to have been seen as using excessive force if there was anyway you could have just stopped the perp's assault. but you as well raise a good point with you're above statement. These two arguements are exactly why there should be a standardized class.

    I mean my instructor was former law enforcement as well and if 2 leos have such an oposing view. what chance do I have in court?