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no offense taken mercator, none whatsoever...

buckeye born and raised...in my youth when i determined in March the black lump which looked like coal was actually a snowball i made in November the previous year i left for warmer climes and only go back irregularly to visit my sole living relative in NW part of the state!
That’s fine. Guess you just like to spell defense with a C.
 

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When I took my CC class we were instructed that we were not allowed to use any more force then the person being attacked.
That's a good way to get crippled or even killed, IMO.

Thankfully, in most U.S. states it's recognized in the statutes that hamstringing people beforehand is too stupid and dangerous for bureaucrats to legislate. Instead, the standard in the statutes tends to be: citizens are fully authorized to do what one deems reasonably necessary, given what one perceives as the conditions and threat at the time. (Except of course in "duty to retreat" states, many of which treat any "violence" as criminally unjustifiable "aggression.")

The day hasn't dawned when I'm going to erase my greatest advantages simply to soothe the spleens of bureaucrats.

I won't tolerate violence done upon me or being victimized. I will halt it, if I'm able. With the means I have at my disposal. With whatever degree of force I deem necessary to halt it. Fully appreciating that "society" reserves authority to evaluate the "reasonableness" of my perceptions and actions, after the fact. I'm okay with that.


Back to the original (OP) question: "If you where driving down the street or shopping and you witness a homeless man getting beat kicked spit and getting hurt what would you do?"

I'm not a ring referee, and far too old to be playing such games. That said ...

Generally speaking, I'd have to almost certainly KNOW that what I was seeing couldn't be anything other than it seems: an unjustifiable, unlawful dire threat being inflicted by an aggressor upon an innocent. (Not all situations, at a glance, are so clear-cut. Bummer, but it's how the real world rolls, in practice.)

The downside of making the wrong call, in a situation like that? My incarceration or erasure of all my liberties, for cause, and very possible damage to innocents. Ain't gonna happen.

That said, I'm all for aiding someone clearly being brutalized, if it's CLEARLY a victim being taken on unjustifiably by an aggressor. With a major caveat: IF I foresee there's good chance of successfully halting it. Else, it's calling for the cavalry given something that's above my ability to alter on-the-spot.

That's me. Though, YMMV depending on your own risk tolerance, your own physical ability to wade into that pool and change things.
 

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Until you find yourself in that place, you cannot truly say what you will do
but by developing a mental plan, you can use the spirit of what others have done in similar instances, learn from their successes and failures. Right or wrong, we all have a good idea of what we are capable of and how we traditionally respond to the adversities of life. Training, knowledge and a thoughtful planning is a much better platform to launch a decision from rather than "winging it". This is commonly the case regardless of whether or not a person have the experience of having faced the situation before.

So although you are correct about not knowing.. It does not negate the benefit of preparations, plans or developmental discussions regarding the construction of plans, tactics or strategies.

so.. not knowing is of little consequence until you meet failure. A failure driven by the inability to respond as anticipated or planned. If that is the case, its time to re-evaluate the plan or overcome personal deficiencies.
 
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harsh as it sounds...but as previously stated several times...

i will be a good witness not engage in the use of deadly force whatsoever, bottom line will absolutely do nothing and with clear consequence will miss the homeless man, the shop clerk, whomever, or as an example if we, as friends, are standing chatting and someone walks up and shoots you in front of me while we were chatting, then turns and walks away...you would be missed!

bottom line, while I am, by statutory guidance, afforded the opportunity to use deadly force in the defence of others - - I won't unless you are within my intimate cohort!

I am not clergy, LE, or in the business of saving anybody...you talk various situational what 'ifs' scenarios and about a plans to compensate for those scenarios -- this is mine...I am and i have shown i can sleep with it without regret!

ya know if my plan was miscalculated...i won't know until after the fact now will I...
 

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but by developing a mental plan, you can use the spirit of what others have done in similar instances, learn from their successes and failures. Right or wrong, we all have a good idea of what we are capable of and how we traditionally respond ...
^ This.

As you say, training and forethought is a much better alternative than "winging" it. Can't know what you don't train for and test; and, generally can't get better at things without training repeatedly and incorporating others' knowledge and experience into the mix. Better that than knowing no functioning crystal balls exist thus imagining it's not worthwhile to work out the kinks in our prep.
 

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if it's a kid, under about age 12, especially female, I will beat the crap out of or shoot whomever I have to in order to stop it. If it's an adult and I dont know them, a phone call is all they'll get, maybe me screaming at the attackers from the safety of my car, if I've got it there.
 

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I would first have to determine the politics of the two involved in the violence.

Every situation is different. If two people were locked in mutual combat, I think I would stand by. If someone was being obviously abused, it would be my duty as a citizen to try to intervene with the smallest application of force necessary to stop the injustice.
 
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I'm not sure what I would do,,,
But I can for certain tell you what I would not do.

I would not draw my gun and wade into the situation.

I would immediately call 911,,,
And then start making as much noise as I could.

I'd rather be a good witness than a wannabe hero.

Aarond

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See this one is resurrected.

Personally I'm not going to stand and watch anyone beaten to death or into a vegetable. Once a person is helpless the situation has moved from whatever it began as to attempted murder at that point. Which is always legal to prevent.
 

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I would be the best witness I could be.

My intent is to be able to protect my family or myself. Cold as it may sound, I do not have any obligation to protect anyone else.

There is another factor. Who is the initial aggressor? To step in and assist the initial aggressor is to seal your fate. Unless, of course, the initial aggressor has broken off and the initial victim decides to become the aggressor.

A friend of the family - female - stepped into a domestic dispute. Took the side of the female who had just been ousted from a pickup truck. When she stepped in, the other woman immediately stood in defense of the man. It ended in court with no real repercussions to the family friend, other than a disruption to daily life. I can only imagine what might of happened.
 

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but by developing a mental plan, you can use the spirit of what others have done in similar instances, learn from their successes and failures. Right or wrong, we all have a good idea of what we are capable of and how we traditionally respond to the adversities of life. Training, knowledge and a thoughtful planning is a much better platform to launch a decision from rather than "winging it". This is commonly the case regardless of whether or not a person have the experience of having faced the situation before.

So although you are correct about not knowing.. It does not negate the benefit of preparations, plans or developmental discussions regarding the construction of plans, tactics or strategies.

so.. not knowing is of little consequence until you meet failure. A failure driven by the inability to respond as anticipated or planned. If that is the case, its time to re-evaluate the plan or overcome personal deficiencies.
Never been involved in any violent situation where the " plan" didnt fly out the window at the outset.
JMO based on experience, the ability to stay calm think and adapt on the fly trump any prepackaged plans .
 

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Never been involved in any violent situation where the " plan" didnt fly out the window at the outset.
This sounds like a common idiom which for some reason seems to be taken literally by some. The remark is typically intended as sarcasm based humor which uses the worst outcome as the rule. Its a joke. It goes without saying that in some instances, nothing goes according to plan. Luckily, in most circumstances.. proper planning yields beneficial results in at least [some] aspects of a crisis which could have been much worse in the face of simply "winging it".

If plans related to combating violence always flew out the window and [if] planning was futile or a waste of effort, people would not continue to apply the practice across the globe and in many critical endeavors.

JMO based on experience, the ability to stay calm think and adapt on the fly trump any prepackaged plans .
Then you seemingly are not acquainted with the human condition in regards to stress related responses. Plans, preparations and training is one of the best ways to help negate or at least mitigate failures, error and poor decision making in the face of hyper stress.

Your ideas are interesting but I know of no crisis management philosophy which comes close to what you are saying.
 

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This sounds like a common idiom which for some reason seems to be taken literally by some. The remark is typically intended as sarcasm based humor which uses the worst outcome as the rule. Its a joke. It goes without saying that in some instances, nothing goes according to plan. Luckily, in most circumstances.. proper planning yields beneficial results in at least [some] aspects of a crisis which could have been much worse in the face of simply "winging it".

If plans related to combating violence always flew out the window and [if] planning was futile or a waste of effort, people would not continue to apply the practice across the globe and in many critical endeavors.



Then you seemingly are not acquainted with the human condition in regards to stress related responses. Plans, preparations and training is one of the best ways to help negate or at least mitigate failures, error and poor decision making in the face of hyper stress.

Your ideas are interesting but I know of no crisis management philosophy which comes close to what you are saying.
Not worried about " crisis management philosophy ".
I've been there done that multiple times both armed and unarmed encounters.

Yes you practice the skills you'll have to have until they are 2nd nature.
Yes you get trained in if doing this then do that.
Which other than honing the actual skills to use without thinking when needed , the rest if things blow sideways usually wont be what was put in a book.

I'm very familiar with dealing with violent people. In the real world, not on the pages of a book.

That philosophy management voodoo is why many many officers today only know two responses when resisted.
Overwhelming numbers or shoot.
 

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Depends on the situation, what I know about those involved, and what oed to that point, along with several other factors.

Some cases, I'm just gonna stand back and watch, others I'd step in. That simple. Can't say which, until it's happening in front of me.
 

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If you where driving down the street or shopping and you witness a homeless man getting beat kicked spit and getting hurt what would you do? You are a legal ccw owner, how would you handle the situation? I was watching a tv showed called what would you do, they used actors and it was all an experiment to see what bystanders would do. One experiment was with a rubber fake bat as a weapon and the other they were unarmedNone of the bystanders had firearms but say if you did and you legally own and carry one what would you do? Would you mind your buisness and let someone else handle the situation? Would you intervene? Would you unholster your weapon and ask them to walk away then call the police? Would you be mr hero and point your gun at them and attempt to aresst then? Would you just keep walking and ignore it and pretend you didnt see it? Please tell me what you would do if this situation ever happens atleast we would know what the majority of us that carry firearms would do share what you would do and why please :)
Wow. This one goes back to 2013, and I do remember that episode.

The reply below is based on that attacker using what appears to be a deadly weapon. Such as the "Baseball Bat" in the OP. (Jesus, did they even think this through, when they went for that one? I can think of seceral states where the Actor portraying the goblin, would have been shot, or held at gunpoint, minimum!)

Going by my own morals, and state statue, I'd get involved, trying to stop the situation in the least violent manner possible, as what is described it at minimum, Felony Assault, pushing attempted murder, having someone with me call 911.

Because attempted can become murder, real damn fast.

Safe distance, 25 feet or more, weapon would be out, before yelling to the attacker to stop, with the person with me describing what it happening, and keeping LE informed. They stop, hold for LE, wait for them to arrive, with the friend having the phone on speaker, and at that point, where I can also communicate with dispatch, making it clear that the person with the gun was not the attacker.

Doesn't stop, I don't even want to think about that. Same with redirects the assault towards me, other than I will do what I have to, to go home that night, and live with the consequences.

Here in PA, SYG applies, to not just you, but in defense of another. And the above situation, if not a game to see what people will do, that falls soundly into being covered by that law. A case where a man shot a fleeing felon, armed, in the back, running toward a playground, after the guy killed his neighbor, and the recent state game lands range shooting, show that law, as intended, in practice.

Both times a bystander ended the threat, with no charges filed.

It's better to feel horrible over ending someone's life, than to feel horrible over them ending someone else's life, having done nothing to stop them.

Apparently unarmed, that response depends on the people around me. Get 2 or 3 other guys to pull him off, as gently as possible, and\or block his access to the victim, while someone alerts LE and EMS, as you don't know if he may be armed, or his mental state. A couple extra bodies involved would make it easier to control him, at that point.

And there is safety in numbers, because only he knows just what set him off, and things aren't always what they first appear. What looks like an unprovoked attack, may have started with the guy using the bat, defending himself, after taking the weapon from his attacker, so having enough backup to control both, would be best.

I'm reminded of Dango's post a couple years ago, where he got the guy terrorizing a young woman to stand down, and walk away, only to find out the incident was because she owed him drug money.

Just me, no weapon involved, report it, be a good witness, but be ready to step in, if the need arises.

Yes, I came back, and did an edit, because I had time to thing about the different scenarios. Going back to the OP changed the dynamic of the given situation, which led to a different response. And my answer is based on the law of the Commonwealth I call home. If I was still in NY, it would be different, as the defensive use of force laws there, are a damn joke. Under them there is little to no provision for use of deadly force, and your actions must not exceed those of your attacker, same with the force used.

You are not even allowed to use deadly force under NY's Castle Doctrine laws. You no longer need to run or escape, but even if they come in with a gun, you are not allowed to kill them, to protect your family. And there is no SYG there, you always have to disengage, and walk away or comply.
 
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