if shock "doesn't exist", (as many claim)

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by uanda, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. uanda

    uanda New Member

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    then WHY is a 000 buck blast any more effective than a magful of 380's, hmm? We all know that the 12 ga blast IS more effective, but it CAN'T be due to blood loss or loss of organ function, cause those things don't take effect instantly, but the buck blast DOES (almost always, but not quite).

    If it takes blood loss or loss of a vital organ to make men stop, why does a solid kick to the jewels put you on the ground, hmm? There's no blood loss, no vital organ damage, but you're still lying there. I'll be happy to kick you there to prove this point, if you really want to dispute it. :) My front snapkick still breaks (with the grain) pine 2 x 12's. ( held at groin height).

    Many have been "brushed" (in a manner of speaking) in the groin, and "think" that they've been kicked in the gonads. However, a proper strike will require testicle removal, because they'll be completely crushed, and gangrene infection from the destroyed tissues will probably kill you. They'll get smashed between your pelvic bone and the "ball" of my foot. Might as well be a hammer and anvil, for all the "give" inherrent in this strike.


    The issue with handgun ammo is that typical loads aint GOT enough energy to cause much (if any) shock and the jhp's typically don't expand in flesh (proven on animals). Care to make some stupid claim that animal tissue and blood is somehow different than human tissue and blood? :)

    When you get up around .22 Hornet rifle impact power (ie, 700 +ft lbs) you can definitely see more effect on critters than when you shoot them with 230 gr .45 jhp's (from a commander).
     
  2. Shoobee

    Shoobee New Member

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    This is your second question which exhibits that you are new to all this and have no idea about the manner of death in killing.

    The modern JHP bullets impart a fair amount of damage on impact by expanding to about 1 inch. The 9mm's and 45ACP's are about equal in this respect.

    For them, the manner of death depends on what you actually hit.

    The best current example is Trayvon Martin, having been shot in the heart by George Zimmerman. It took Martin several seconds to die. And he lived long enough to utter "you shot me!" with expletives to some effect.

    It would require a perfect head shot or neck shot to get a faster response for incapacitation, and even then death itself would take longer.

    A head shot through the eye or nose channels would have the immediate effect of the victim falling down and flopping around, due to severe nerve damage. The victim would still require a longer time to die however -- witness the JFK assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald.

    A neck shot that penetrates the spinal cord would also drop the victim immediately, only there would then be no flopping around. In these cases bleeding would require much longer for the victim to die. And if you somehow missed all the arteries and big vessels, then paralysis rather than death at all might be the final result.

    Manner of death is cause either by brain trauma, or spinal trauma, or heart trauma, or else by bleeding.

    Bleeding takes a long long time to cause death. People have a lot of blood in them, about a full gallon. And the only way to drain all the blood out of the brain quickly is to slice somebody's throat with a sharp knife, like OJ Simpson did with Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. A bullet would NOT cause that kind of bleeding.

    A heart shot would cut off blood flow to the brain almost immediately, however the brain has about a 15 second supply of blood still in it.

    If someone shot you through the heart, you would still have enough time to shoot them back about 15 times before you collapsed and died, as long as you stayed focused and did not panic.

    A liver shot or pancreas shot to the gut would also cause death, but it would take a lot longer -- this is a very slow kill -- witness Jack Rubenstein's shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Shot from a shotgun shell at close range causes very severe damage, and a fairly large wound, which also results is sever bleeding.

    But for hydrostatic shock on impact you would need to use a 308 rifle or larger. And the magnum rifles work even better, like a charm!
     

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    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014

  3. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    Because it's a larger blast, and all the projectiles hit the

    animal all at once. It's cumulative effect, not "shock".


    The 230 gr 45ACP is actually a slower, less powerful

    round, I've done my own ballistics tests to confirm this. But the size of the

    round, combined with the slower speed, makes it a very effective man

    stopper.


    But what's your point OP? And why are you comparing apples to oranges,

    ballistically?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  4. Point6liter

    Point6liter New Member

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    And would the .45ACP's ballistics change if say a brigadier general, or a captain were to be the one pulling the trigger?
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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  6. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    .................
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  7. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Come on 1" expansion? A shotgun slug maybe but not a normal pistol round. 000 buck weighs 70 grains and there are 8 in a 2 3/4" 12 gauge and 10 in a mag @ 1200-1250 fps. Even with 00 buck you have a massive swarm of pellets hitting the target and they dont spread much at 7 yards and under. Dont look at the picture if you are squeamish.

    (please do not post such pics)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2014
  8. rn-cindy

    rn-cindy Active Member

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    Not much blood loss there...Hope he was ok...
     
  9. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    Define OK.
     
  10. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    I'm still curious on your credentials.
     
  11. otisthecat

    otisthecat New Member

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    I don't think the giant hole in his chest did him in. It was ultimately the gangrene from a crushed set of testes that finished him.
     
  12. rn-cindy

    rn-cindy Active Member

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    He probably just rubbed some dirt on it,,and walked it off...lol. That pic is photo shopped for sure..Iv'e seen an open chest cavity .
     
  13. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    The "kick to the testicles" analogy is just amateurish. You can crush a man's testicles between your foot and the pelvic bone? You are dreaming (or just suffering from delusions of grandeur). The pelvic bone is 3-5" inside the body and a significant amount of flesh exists in that area.

    Let me try to explain why "OOO" Buckshot drops people so fast. As you pointed out, getting hit by 8 shots of .380 ACP does not drop people like that, but buck shot does.

    The cumulitive effect does not come from 8 hits, it comes from 8 hits at the SAME EXACT TIME! Your brain stem/cerebellum control all your autonomous bodily functions. When you are injured, the healing/repair process starts immediately. Platelets, white blood cells, etc are sent to the site of the damage. Veins and arteries in various places are constricted or dialated to adjust blood flow.

    When multiple injuries occur at the same instant, the brain cannot immediately determine which ones are more seriouos than others. To help the basal functions deal with the situation more efficiently, the uppper functions must be put on pause. The person is rendered unconcious almost instantly. This is a function of the brain telling the conscious brain to "go to sleep, I'm too busy to deal with you right now."

    Machine gun fire does not have this effect. Multiple hits from a single shooter does not have this effect. Double taps do not have this effect. Multiple shooters hitting at the same time DOES have this effect. I have seen several videos of LE shootings where 2-3 officers are shooting at the same time. The shootee tends to drop. Watch a video of a firing squad execution. They condemned drops and does not twitch. They are rendered unconscious INSTANTLY.

    The only "magic" here is in the brain of the recipient of the shots
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  14. LikeABoss

    LikeABoss Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Too late, I looked.
     
  15. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is this a 'sucking chest wound' or a 'chest wound that SUCKS'!!!:eek:
     
  16. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seriously, one of the things I see seldom addressed when discussing gun shot wounds to human animals is the psychological affects. I have seen several people who received very minor wounds (both good guys and bad guys) just 'give up' because they were shot and just knew they were 'dead'. And on the flip side I have seen and read of just the opposite, people who have received fatal wounds who continue to fight effectively for several minutes.
    There is only two ways to 'stop' the fight for sure (address previously):
    1. A central nervous system hit. (upper spine and head)
    2. Oxygen deprivation to the brain caused by a loss of blood pressure resulting from a massive blood loss. You do not need to loss 'all' of your blood for this to occur. When your reach the 20% loss you will start to go into 'shock'.
    Not rocket science. But the problem which occurs when you try and intelligently discuss this is to many people rely on a VERY small sample and/or misinformation, which is very abundant in this 'information' world.;)
     
  17. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    A 45/70 has over twice the energy of a 220 swift. I don't know how you all think there 22 cal cartridges can compare to cartridges that have been known to down the largest game on the planet. A 45/70 will certainly cause hydrostatic shock. A 220 swift it is debatable if it causes hydrostatic shock, even it does the amount of shock is negligible. You have to have a 243 or larger cartridge to produce significant amounts of hydrostatic shock. The next thing you know you will be claiming a 5.56x45 rivals a 30/06 because you like the 5.56 and want to make it look more impressive.

    220 swift Avg Velocity 3845 Avg Energy 1674 ft lb
    45/70 government avg velocity 2275 avg energy 3449 ft lb
     
  18. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    Of course my comparison was Apples vs. Oranges for a reason. While generating numbers that aren't that aren't really all that far apart (Unless one only grabs the extremes), the two cartridges do their work in completely different manners.
    I stand by that original point.
    If it makes everyone feel better, I will concede that if one were to dig deeper into the ballistics tables, there are closer matches. Happy now? Since the post in question was intended to illustrate a broader point and not as a Masters Thesis on hydrostatic shock, I would ask that some latitude be given.

    Considering you've posted such pearls as:
    and
    I'm not entirely certain I can take your scientific critiques overly seriously.
    http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/p-does-matter-108014/
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  19. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i'd like to see your source or proof that it takes at least a 243 or larger to produce significant amounts of hydrstatic shock.

    IMO, a 220 Swift would kill an animal just like a 45/70 would, if proper bullets and shot placement were used. but granted, the larger the animal, the larger the caliber i would wnat to use.