How the hell is it possibie that an IDPA/IASC shooter is better trained than a cop?

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by MVG, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. MVG

    MVG Member

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    Would you believe it?
    Yesterday we were challenged by the local police officers at the range...and let me say it...I have never seen a group of cops being so poorly trained!!!I would never put my life in their hands!!
    Missfiring, missing the target, failed to neutralize the target, dangerous weapon handling....

    We tried several weapons/platforms, each team has used the same agreed weapons, so nobody would say "Yes, you won...but your rifle was modified":

    LONG GUNS
    -AK:M70 and Galil
    -AR 15: M4
    -Remmington 870 tactical
    -Remington 700

    HANDGUNS
    -Glock 17
    -Beretta 92
    -Taurus revolver(Don't ask what model, honestly I don't know...)

    RESULTS(How did the cops performed):
    AK:The majority of them neither knew how to use it.Once they fired it, they missed the majority of the targets(claiming that the rifle is uncontrollable...how the hell did we succeed in hitting all the targets?).
    AR15:Much better...they knew somehow how to handle it.But still...they were not as fast or accurate as we.
    -Remmington 870 tactical:Very very very slow while reloading the rifle and repeating the rifle between target engagement.
    Remington 700:Accurate shooting...till 150m pretty good.From 200+ m the accuracy has completely disappeared.Optics has been used.

    Glock17:Nice.This time they performed well
    Beretta 92:Good, but not exceptional...
    Taurus:Really bad performace.It seems that many cops are allergic to revolvers.

    I know that many police officers are really well trained, but....this time I have to say that I'm really disappointed and worried.I simply cannot accept it.How the hell is that possible that a group of IASC shooters would ridicole a group of (pseudo) well trained cops?
     
  2. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    I probably wouldnt believe that was a universal fact across the PD's in America but sadly, it happens more here than it ever should. I had cooks that fired expert but The NYPD needs as many rounds to take down a single perpetrator at 20' as a Cook needs to Record Fire. The cook actually spends more time on the range very often than many PD's. I dont think most of them would have made my Drill Sgt very happy but we didnt either!

    I do expect the highest degree of Professionalism and Excellence from those that carry a badge and a gun. Thats not so much to ask when every situation they encounter could mean life or death for them or us is it?
     

  3. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    My step daughter's boy friend is a Sheriff's Deputy. I like most LEO. But he is an A-Hole. Took him to the range one time. She out shot him with his own gun! I taught her to shoot. He sucks, plain and simple. I have helped to organize and shot in competitions with the Sheriffs dept. We do fund raisers for the Jail Ministry. One of my friends is a deputy and a great shooter. He is also a hunter. Most of the other deputies are no where even close to the level of the non-LEO competitors. It is sad. I tell them that if I had to walk up to a car in the dark every night, I would be a lot more practiced than they are. I told them that if someone breaks into my house I will take care of it myself. They would just come and shoot my kid.
     
  4. 25-5

    25-5 New Member

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    This is not news.
     
  5. msup752

    msup752 New Member

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    I only shot a few hundred rounds in the police academy. My department did firearm qualification quarterly. The agencies I now work with are so short on ammo that they did not shoot their AR's during the last qualification. I'm sure that will change soon.
    I shoot more in a few months in the summer than the officers do in 3 years.
     
  6. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Police have no more training than the average ccw holder when it comes to the average officer. Very little to no time is spent on marksmanship.

    The reason for this is shooting people almost never happens in the typical career of a police officer. That's reality.

    What police DO spend an aweful lot of time on is use of force conflict resolution and taking people into custody WITHOUT shooting them.

    Personal I prefer police focusing on taking time taking suspects alive and calming down the irate citizen.

    Don't believe everything you see on tv.
     
  7. MVG

    MVG Member

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    Man, you're really honest

    I would invite you to the range...if you shoot as well as you think, then I would most probably learn something from you.;)
     
  8. MVG

    MVG Member

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    If this is true....

    ...it is not sad....it's unacceptable.I'm a former rifleman of the JNA and I have combat experience.If the situation is as you described it above, then I would join you:I would prefer to take care of it myself(We call it the "Balkan way of solving problems") :D
     
  9. MVG

    MVG Member

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    ....and the anti-gun law supporter says that...

    ..."you don't need a gun gun for your own protection.There's the police for such things".Sure...there's the police...If the don't kill ME instead of the criminals...OBVIOUSLY BY MISTAKE!!! :mad:
     
  10. MVG

    MVG Member

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    ok....fine....

    I can even agree with you...partially.Why?Let's say that the a criminal just shot me or shot a couple of rounds in my direction...and a cops comes along.What should I tell him?What am I supposed to tell him?
    1)"Can you please take him alive while he is shooting us?"
    2)"Can you please calm him down while he is shoot us?"
    3)"Can you please take him in custody while he is trying to blow your head up?"
    4)"Since you don't spent much time on marksmanship,its time to practice now.Let's do it!The one who doesn't get killed wins!"

    Or should I tell him "KNOCK THE MOTHERF*CKER DOWN WITH A MOZAMBIQUE!"(Shot in the head and in the chest...double tapping) and be 100% sure that he will carry out the order rapidly and effectively.

    In such situation...what would you prefer?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  11. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would of being more surprised if the police shot well. People at the range have an interest in firearms and shooting and would do a lot of shooting . A lot of police have no interest in firearms and shooting the firearm just comes with the job. So why would you expect them to shoot well.
     
  12. vincent

    vincent New Member

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    A large number of LEO's have never handled a firearm until they are in the Academy, and a significant portion of those don't train afterwards because...

    -Some just have no interest in shooting but to pass qualifiers...

    -Most departments have made serious financial cutbacks, cops are forced to supply their own ammo, targets and various whatnots. On their salary, they probably simply can't afford to train...

    -after an 8 hour shift, 2 hours of paperwork, commuting, family time, overtime, downtime, there just aren't enough hours in the day to mix in a range trip on a regular basis...they have a lot on their plate...

    Cut 'em some slack...:cool:
     
  13. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    The job they are assigned to has a lot to do with training.

    Traffic rarely uses their firearms.
    Investigators normally do not need to pull a firearm.
    Desk jockeys? Same thing.

    Ask to shoot against their SWAT? Not for me.
     
  14. indy36

    indy36 New Member

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    Seems true enough to me. I shoot Steel Challenge events and IDPA events monthly. I shoot skeet weekly. I shoot more rounds than any 'regular' police officer I know of, thus, I'd expect to be better. Also, being a police officer doesn't translate into them loving guns and shooting being their preferred hobby. They aren't all black belts in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or boxing masters. They fish or golf or coach soccer or what ever. Being into guns isn't required.

    Another note along the same lines, just because someone works in a gun store doesn't mean they know diddly about guns.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  15. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Mark, its been some time since I qual fired, Im retired 11 years now and the only reason I carried an M16 was for the Army. Im no expert although I have fired expert on a number of occasions but most folks here probably could teach me more about an AR than I could ever teach them.

    When I was in, I had to be good as I could be even if I never fired a real bullet at the Enemy. I was AA infantry 17 years, guns are a part of the job. If the PDs arent getting the ammo to get the range time, that sucks, shame on us for not supplying that.

    Id love to take an AR out shooting again, they were fun. Prob stuck with my old shotguns!
     
  16. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Manta is right on the Money!

    From a past law enforcement standpoint most of you are exactly correct! For several years up until Iraq and Afganistan there might be in a department of 100 officer and only 3 - 5 would be military vetrans and maybe another 4 -5 that liked to hunt or shoot weapons. Some of them liked to shoot on a regular basis and some did not due to thier experiences in combat but could handle themselves with their weapon becuase of realizing the importance of training when they trained. Then there were a lot of officers that only take the position to have a job as Manta stated and wouldn't even want to carry one if it were not required. "Stupid!" There were also some agencies that would not hire anyone for a while unless they had at least BA college degree. So they got softer Book Smart people in some cases with little common sense. This eliminated some very good applicants who had common sense, weapon skills and would have made good officers but did not have the opportunity to go to college. Referring to farm kids, hunters and other with some firearms apptitude and skills. I went to college also but that does not make you a good officer or skilled with weapons. Shooting since 4 years old weapons is a part of my life in the past and present. So I cannot imagine not wanting to be proficient? The same is true with firearms proficiency as stated, some just have a gun because it is part of the job. And as was mentioned most never have had any real responsibility in life let alone weapon experience. And most all have never been in a fight or confrontation or used a weapon hunting, shooting or other before getting the job. However, that is not always true! Some officers are very proficient and some agencies train and have much strickter requirements than others. One agency may not put an important enphisis on firearms training only allowing their officers to qualify once a year and with a total of 50 rounds. Which is self explainitory no wonder they can't shoot! Yes they are out there! It is not totally the officers fault and with ammunition as expensive and hard to get and the cost of raising a young family I can see why they do not have resorces to buy enough ammunition to become proficient on their own. It takes quite a lot of ammunition to become proficient enought to survive a confrontation when adrenline is flowing and fine motor skills go to crap! First of all if I could not afford enough ammunition on my own to become reasonably proficient and the agency had little support I would be finding another agency. Its my life and being a bread winner it is of prime importance for my family as well. We were very blessed with a $65,000 + firearms budget. The officers not only trained extensively every quarter but qualified twice a year in the day and in the night. And then their was SWAT 12 hours a month on top of regular qualification and two weeks a year on the Army base. And special units like the Patrol Carbine Unit that demmanded that these officers had 100% hits on the target to qualify and 80% in the 8 ring for example on a B-27 target. They were proficient and wanted to be. The Snipers were required to make 1 MOA Shots on the head or 10 ring. And frequently trained at 500 yards. Not that we would ever need to but it is called "Stand Off"! The Sniper Unit were expected to do head shots at up to 300- 400 yards and did. In fact they won the Gold in the World Police and Fire Games in Indianapolis in 2001 beating Dallas, Belfast Ireland and other great teams compeating. And I recall when 3 Indianapolis IN. Police Officers were allowed to attend the Navy Seal Sniper School and took the first two places in the class when graduation came around. The Navy Sniper School Commander wore a black arm band during the graduation ceremony presentation due to the fact the LEOs had shot the highest scores and achieved the highest standard of anyone in the class. So althoug the normal officer may be very limited on training and maybe not having good weapon skills and proficiency is not always the case. (and I agree some are P poor!) But those we are speaking of should be seriously considering improving their skills or changing professions. I being a trainer have always said 65% of all people will possibly die or be seriouly injured in their first gunfight. SO TRAIN! TRAIN! TRAIN! PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE! I still practice and shoot my Presidential 218 Qualification each year for my 218 Permit. So get all the ammunition and practice you can afford. We/They owe it to ourselves, those they serve and most importantly our/their families.;)

    03
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  17. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    well 85% of police work involves dealing with incredibly stupid people doing some really idiotic and dangerous things. 14.99% of police work involves writing about that former 85%. .01% involves cranking off rounds at the general public when things get out of control.

    so your telling me that police should spend the majority of their budgets on something that occurs almost never...

    ive done the job. thats the reality of police work. miami vice hawaii 5-0 it aint.

    i dont look for any police officer to be my body guard. its not their job.
     
  18. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Most people have to shoot a few IDPA events before they shoot their best. The civilians play the game every weekend. I know a lot of IDPA shooters that are fine shots but I would never take them rabbit hunting. They have only handled a gun in a controlled environment.

    I am quite sure they would be disoriented in the controlled chaos that is a good rabbit hunt. Sometimes we turn out 20 dogs. The dogs split up into several packs. Everyone is constantly shifting. Someone that has no practical experience would be a hazard no matter how many IDPA matches they have shot.

    Just because you are top dog at the range doesn't mean you can apply your experience in a practical situation. I have seen champion skeet shooters that couldn't hit a dove. Dove hunting is pure instinctive shooting. Skeet can be as mechanical as a robot in a factory.
     
  19. DrFootball

    DrFootball disappointed & disgusted, But DETERMINED... Lifetime Supporter

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    I have to say this is a great thread! I was totally out of competition shooting since 1999 until late last year, when I did my first Rimfire match here in Az. Back east i shot mostly centerfire pistol and a little rifle. Only proves the point that practice makes perfect! I was poor that day, but I "stepped on the ball and trimmed it up" rather swiftly after that. Now that I'm "re-trained" and wearing my glasses, I'm doing so much better in all phases. While I still have not broken out the 30cal's at anything over 100 yards, I'm confident I can score out to 300 if I have to. Wife wants to go back to Payson or down to one of the outdoor ranges in Phx as soon as it cools down, so I'll get (to take) that shot soon enough.
     
  20. MVG

    MVG Member

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    Well as a former specialist, shooting against swat would be funny-It would be great to kick their *** and in case they would kick mine it would be twice that great-I would learn something new.

    The swat is well equipped, their are very well trained for being...let's say....a little more than ordinary police.Try to train with spetsnaz...they would it the swat for breakfast!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013