Firearms Talk banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So im trying to get into reloading (bad timing, I know). Right now I am having a hard time picking out dies. cant find any 762x39 dies so right now I will focus on 308 and 223/556

Specifically I have these to reload for:

308 AR10

223 bolt gun

223/556 AR15

I will be full length resizing. I am a bit confused about "National match" dies. I see them recommended for ARs. Exactly how are they different?

In the end I want to full length resize and bump the shoulder back like 2-3 thousandths. on a standard full length resizing die am I able to control the shoulder bump back or not? Is this what a "national match" die does? I am under the impression a NM die bumps the shoulder back 2-3 thousandths


or does a regular full length die resize all the way back to SAAMI minimums??

will a NM die work in both the 223 bolt AND 223/556 AR? on the AR10 and AR15 I will be doing all slow firing, no mag dumps. of course i wont be crimping the bolt gun

thanks for any guidance or ideas, JJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,644 Posts
So im trying to get into reloading (bad timing, I know). Right now I am having a hard time picking out dies. cant find any 762x39 dies so right now I will focus on 308 and 223/556

Specifically I have these to reload for:

308 AR10

223 bolt gun

223/556 AR15

I will be full length resizing. I am a bit confused about "National match" dies. I see them recommended for ARs. Exactly how are they different?

In the end I want to full length resize and bump the shoulder back like 2-3 thousandths. on a standard full length resizing die am I able to control the shoulder bump back or not? Is this what a "national match" die does? I am under the impression a NM die bumps the shoulder back 2-3 thousandths


or does a regular full length die resize all the way back to SAAMI minimums??

will a NM die work in both the 223 bolt AND 223/556 AR? on the AR10 and AR15 I will be doing all slow firing, no mag dumps. of course i wont be crimping the bolt gun

thanks for any guidance or ideas, JJ
7.62x39 bullets are not super common because they’re like .310, especially if you ever want to load subsonics. Boxer primed brass isn’t very common either, I thought about getting a die set but for me it’s easier and probably cheaper to buy wolf. The components are out there if you really want to handload for it though.

The national match dies are probably just held to stricter tolerances for the long range precision shooters. I wouldn’t say they’re a necessity and would recommend rcbs small base dies over them.

Sizing dies will just bottom out on the shell holder and you shouldn’t need to set them to move the shoulder back a certain amount. You can adjust it by turning out the die out if it’s setting the shoulder back too much. I use Lyman case gauges to check all mine but there are other brands out there. One side measures headspace, the other case length.

On the bolt gun, I would get a neck sizer die and keep it and the AR brass separated. You’ll get longer brass life and more accuracy.

Full length sizing dies do not take the brass to saami minimum, it just gets it with in saami specifications.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,823 Posts
I have successfully loaded .223 ammo for my modern sporting rifles using Dillon brand dies.

The main thing is full length size using a small base die.

Neck sizing is for when you plan to shoot the reloaded brass in the rifle in which it was previously fired. When you want ammo to chamber in any rifle you own in the specific caliber, you need to full length size.

Also, the COAL must be compatible with your magazines. If the ammo is loaded too long and binds up in the mag, you are out of the match.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,712 Posts
You may have picked the worst possible time to start reloading. The equipment and the components are overpriced and under stocked. Having said that don’t overlook Lee dies thinking because they are cheaper priced they are inferior.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,823 Posts
You may have picked the worst possible time to start reloading. The equipment and the components are overpriced and under stocked. Having said that don’t overlook Lee dies thinking because they are cheaper priced they are inferior.
IKR, look at what reloading gizmos are selling for on ebay!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
874 Posts
I would agree with Gator on small base for semi auto, although most AR chambers are pretty generous these days.
As for 7.62x39, most eveyone i know that loads it uses .308 bullets.
I just picked up a full set of lee dies with the factory crimp and both expanders for 7.62x39 for 35$ on Amazon. Go throw dies in your wishlist and wait. While prices are vacillating, they do come down to reasonable levels.
I have very good results with lee and lyman msr dies. If you are doing precision long range competition or something there are lots of more precise dies and other equipment out there. I personally wouldn't recommend buying the "best" and most expensive out of the gate. You don't know yet what works for you or what you really need.
My2c
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,684 Posts
I looked for some reloading goodies on eBay a few days ago and ended up reporting about 20 items for price gouging lol.
Austin92, I just don't get people like you.
While I don't agree with people raising prices when things are hard to find, it's just the Free Market system working as it can / should. If the price is too high for what you're willing to pay, then just don't buy it.

I bet you would never "report" someone for selling something 50% less than what it's worth. Is there any difference between the Buyer getting a good deal or the Seller making as much as someone willing to pay for the same item?

Everyone blames the Seller's for the crazy HIGH prices. It actually is the Buyer's fault for actually paying those prices.
If people weren't buying the stuff at high prices, then the Seller's would have to lower the price in order to sell the stuff !

It's simple economics.
 

·
Supporting Member
Joined
·
12,183 Posts
CZ
I am familiar with Forster products. And I will say they make good products. I have used their Head Space Gauges in the Armorer Schools for years. But I personally since I have had them for years, have mostly all RCBS Dies for all my calibers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CZ Newb

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
CZ
I am familiar with Forster products. And I will say they make good products. I have used their Head Space Gauges in the Armorer Schools for years. But I personally since I have had them for years, have mostly all RCBS Dies for all my calibers.
Im not even super worried about brands....there are just so many TYPES of dies etc...then multiply that by brands...then add the crapshoot of mixed availability. A big headache for sure
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,644 Posts
Austin92, I just don't get people like you.
While I don't agree with people raising prices when things are hard to find, it's just the Free Market system working as it can / should. If the price is too high for what you're willing to pay, then just don't buy it.

I bet you would never "report" someone for selling something 50% less than what it's worth. Is there any difference between the Buyer getting a good deal or the Seller making as much as someone willing to pay for the same item?

Everyone blames the Seller's for the crazy HIGH prices. It actually is the Buyer's fault for actually paying those prices.
If people weren't buying the stuff at high prices, then the Seller's would have to lower the price in order to sell the stuff !

It's simple economics.
I get the concept of a free market and there were plenty of die sets in the 50-70$ range, which I understand the little bit of price increase but the lee sets listed at Redding prices, yeah, that’s price gouging.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,684 Posts
I get the concept of a free market and there were plenty of die sets in the 50-70$ range, which I understand the little bit of price increase but the lee sets listed at Redding prices, yeah, that’s price gouging.
And nobody is forcing you to buy them
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
425 Posts
I'll throw a plug out for Hornady dies. Well made, smooth, and they work well. I also have some Lee dies and have no complaints considering the price (pre-panic prices).

If you're having problems finding dies through all the normal retail channels, take a look through gunbroker. Yeah, it has a reputation for gougers selling there, but if you ignore the obvious stupid priced items, you can find some stuff reasonably priced. In fact, I just took a quick peek, there is a set of factory new Lee Pacesetter dies for 308 sitting at $12.58 bid (3 days to go, so it will probably go up some, but ya never know). Or there's a set of brand new Redding Deluxe for $82.95 Buy It Now price (most retail sites list these around $75-ish (but out of stock), so $82.95 is reasonable and they're available). Anyway, like eBay, some items are bid only some have Buy It Now options. There's a lot, so you can spend a bit of time perusing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I'll throw a plug out for Hornady dies. Well made, smooth, and they work well. I also have some Lee dies and have no complaints considering the price (pre-panic prices).

If you're having problems finding dies through all the normal retail channels, take a look through gunbroker. Yeah, it has a reputation for gougers selling there, but if you ignore the obvious stupid priced items, you can find some stuff reasonably priced. In fact, I just took a quick peek, there is a set of factory new Lee Pacesetter dies for 308 sitting at $12.58 bid (3 days to go, so it will probably go up some, but ya never know). Or there's a set of brand new Redding Deluxe for $82.95 Buy It Now price (most retail sites list these around $75-ish (but out of stock), so $82.95 is reasonable and they're available). Anyway, like eBay, some items are bid only some have Buy It Now options. There's a lot, so you can spend a bit of time perusing.
its not the price or even the availability....its just not knowing exactly what to get. Like right now Im trying to pick a set of dies for a 308 AR10....its mind numbing. Id love for a set to just say "designed for ARs" or "for autoloaders"

on that note, the "National Match" die thing is somewhat amusing. Though it says plainly on Forsters site that the NM dies are for BOLT GUNS, about half the videos and forum posts say that they are for ARs lol. good stuff

of course the Small Base dies do say they are for autoloaders etc but im worried about working the brass too much or having too loose of tolerances. The whole reason i want to handload is to get into sub moa territory including my gas guns.

I think ill just get a basic set of 308 dies to start with and see what happens
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
425 Posts
To my knowledge there are no AR specific dies. That National match thing, the only thing it does is bump the shoulder back .003"...and you don't need a "National Match" die to do that. Just screw your full length resizing die in a little further until it bumps the shoulder. Just like setting your bullet seater, screw it in a little, run a case in, then measure your shoulder to base length with a comparator. Adjust the die until it is bumping the shoulder back however far you want it to go. The reason they say it is for "bolt action rifles" is because the next set of dies, the small base, they are telling you need that for your ammo to run in other types of actions...but pay attention to what they say "sometimes" it is needed. The National Match set only bumps the shoulder and does not size down the body thinner than the standard dies. The small base dies slim it down more (and if adjusted, will bump the shoulder, you don't need that "National Match" die.

Essentially, they're giving you some choices for the die's action, but in reality, you don't need any of that. One of the operations (bumping shoulders back) you can do with the full length sizing die, regardless of brand or model of die. Small base might...and I stress might be needed, but only if "normal" full length sizing isn't working. Problems with gas guns not working with normal resizing is probably due to minimum chamber specs and the dies sizing somewhere above that. I have more than one friend who loads 5.56 with just basic die sets and have no issues in their AR's because they didn't use small base dies or a "National Match" die.

Sub MOA depends on a lot of things. Some of the reloading standards don't necessarily apply to gas guns because they have a little bit different requirements for their ammo. I'm certainly not a world renowned expert on AR accuracy, but from my experience and from what I've seen, sub MOA territory with that platform has more to do with the hardware than the ammo, certainly the powder load and bullet are important for finding that accuracy node, but you're limited on what you can do to the brass compared to bolt guns. In other words, the chances are pretty slim for taking a basic AR-15 that only shoots OK with factory ammo and turning it into a sub MOA gun simply with handloads.

If you are going to be shooting 308 in a bolt gun as well, then get a set of dies that includes both a full length die and a neck die, or just buy a neck sizing die separately. Neck size for the bolt gun to reduce brass working and to keep that "custom fit" for your bolt gun (but after a few firings, you will have to full length size). Make sure you keep your bolt gun brass separate from your AR brass.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
874 Posts
its not the price or even the availability....its just not knowing exactly what to get. Like right now Im trying to pick a set of dies for a 308 AR10....its mind numbing. Id love for a set to just say "designed for ARs" or "for autoloaders"

on that note, the "National Match" die thing is somewhat amusing. Though it says plainly on Forsters site that the NM dies are for BOLT GUNS, about half the videos and forum posts say that they are for ARs lol. good stuff

of course the Small Base dies do say they are for autoloaders etc but im worried about working the brass too much or having too loose of tolerances. The whole reason i want to handload is to get into sub moa territory including my gas guns.

I think ill just get a basic set of 308 dies to start with and see what happens
There are sets for semi autos. The lyman msr set. I have these sets for .308, .223, and .458 SOCOM. Love them. I would recommend upgrading the expander rod though. It's a little soft.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top