Help me daydream about my next project...

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by DarinCraft, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    I don't know if you guys are at all like me, but I like to sit around and daydream about different things. My latest daydream is my next rifle build.

    I already have two AR's and an extra lower. I was going to build a 20" bull barreled AR for "longer range" shots with the spare lower, but I thought for less than the cost of the upper I can buy a Remington 700 SPS in .308. Then I would have a precision bolt gun.

    What do you think? Would you rather have precision bolt gun or another AR. By the way one of the AR's is a M4 copy cat and the other is a carbine with a DPMS 16" Bull barrel.

    Thanks
     
  2. Dr. Marneaus

    Dr. Marneaus New Member

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    I dont have a thing for bolt guns, but i REALLY don't have as thing for AR's.

    However....I think you should diversify. .223 or 5.56 is great and all, but up the caliber a little bit. I'd love to have a .308......but mine would be an M1A.

    But then again, I'm weird. I don't like bolt guns, or AR's....what the heck? haha. I guess thats why i just picked up the .45-70 lever gun.
     

  3. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Get the Rem 700/308
     
  4. dteed4094

    dteed4094 New Member

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    2X what cane says. Sounds like somebody's dreams are rather ambiguous, I'm not a SA person but if I had 2 already I would probably want a versatile gun in a different format. 308 is an excellent all around choice in caliber. Who makes it is somewhat of a personal prefrence but 700 Rem would not disappoint you. Unless you want an AR collection, diversify. Only you can ultimately make a decision on what you want. Base that on what you want to do with the gun.
     
  5. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Or the Rem 700 in 30-06
     
  6. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I don't know about a daydream there brother. That sounds more like a fantasy to me. :p

    Out of the box, the Remington is a decent enough rifle, but it is FAR from being a "precision" anything.

    Now everyone knows I am no fan of the Big Green marketing machine, but you really need to define "precision".

    If you are talking about shooting a 2" group at 100 yards, or hitting a man sized target in the chest at 300 yards, those are both totally do able with that rifle.

    If you are talking about shooting 3 or 5 shot groups at 100 yards that you can cover with a dime? Good luck. You are going to be doing A LOT of work to that factory stick to achieve that level of performance.

    Let me ask you this: What do you want this "long range" stick to do? Whether it be an AR or a boltgun?

    JD
     
  7. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Percision bolt gun. Thats easy

    Surgeon 591 Short Action http://www.surgeonrifles.com/homepage/

    Kreiger barrel chambered in 260 rem with a tight neck. http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/

    Mc Millan F-CLASS stock. http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-competition-stock-list.php?subnav=branch4a

    Surgeon RSR Scope Rail 20MOA http://www.surgeonrifles.com/homepage/

    Badger Ordnance Rings http://www.badgerordnance.com/

    March 10-60x52mm scope. http://www.deon.co.jp/march/Long_range_benchrest.html

    I would have all the metal coated flat black and get the stock in black gray and red.

    Easy pezy
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  8. wolfdog

    wolfdog New Member

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    I am not a 308 fan, nor a big fan or Remington. I would go with a savagefp in 30.06 if I wanted a bolt gun. But since you already have an ar lower, look into a 6.5 Grendal upper.
     
  9. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    You're right my idea of precision is a little off kilter. I am envisioning 5" groups at about 500 yards. Truth be told the longest range I have available is 200 or so yards, however there is a 1000 meter known distance range about 1.5 hr away and I would like to visit it sometime. I know I will not shoot 1000 meters but it would be nice to be able to shoot 500.

    The 700 I was looking at was the SPS Varmint with the heavy 26" barrel and the adjustable trigger. Then when money came around I would put a H&S stock on it.

    I do love AR's, but by no means am a collector. My 16" bull barreled AR has a red dot on it, but it will be getting a 3x9 scope. I hope this will be a 100 yard tack driver and will be good for varmints out to 300 yards.

    I was considering the 20" AR, mostly because I have a stripped M&P lower. I considered a 458, but after doing research and talking to Cane, I changed my mind and am going to use my 30-06 for hogs on the few occasions I get to go hunting. Instead of having a $3.50 a round gun sitting in the safe.

    When I started pricing out the cost to build the AR, I thought "I can buy and build a remington 700 for the same money and I'll have a .308." In my ignorant mind I thought the .308 would be a better option than another .223.

    Truth is I am a paper punching range warrior. In the last two years I got the bug because since I got retired I could not go out and play with the departments toys. Now I am trying to build a well rounded collection without getting obsessed.

    My current collection is.
    XD 40
    XD 40 SC
    G22
    1911
    10/22
    Old Winchester 1917 30-06 "sporterized"
    two carbine AR's
    Mossy 590 for HD
    Remington 1100 20 ga (given to me)
    Remington 1100 12 ga(work in progress)
    Chinese SKS (given to me)
    Two Saiga S12's
    and a couple of other shotguns (win 1400, some 20 ga)

    As you can see other than 30-06, the largest caliber I have is the .223 and the 7.62x39. Since I am just getting into firearms as a hobby my purposes are a little stupid in that I want most of these guns just to have them. I don't hunt that often (bird mostly and hopefully pigs are in the future), my local range is pretty inadequate, but I hope to get into longer range(not long range) shooting. As far as I can see, I have no other reasons and will probably stop buying guns after this one. Or my wife will kill me considering the only guns I had two years ago were the 10/22 and my bird gun the Win 1400.

    Brand reasoning Remington. Affordable adjustable trigger and factory 26" heavy barrel. Savage I love them, but the factory heavy barrels are 22" unless you go up to the higher priced sticks. Howa I can't figure out a damn thing about these things. The site is hard to navigate to figure out what models come with what. The Surgeons, H&S's, Mcmillans and others I would have to refinance my house to buy one.

    Here's another thing, I can't leave anything alone. My trucks get lifted, my Chevelle is stripped waiting for it's big block. So asthetics is right up there with function. With that being said, I think a bolt gun with a 10 round mag hanging out the bottom looks great. Do I need it? No way, but it looks cool, just like a lift kit or wheels. The Remington I can get a trigger guard that accepts McMillan magazines, I know it sounds stupid but at least I am being honest.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  10. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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  11. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Your reasoning is some of the most sound I have heard, and believe me, I have heard a lot of them come through the shop doors... LOL

    I have a ton more to add, but I am playing Army of Two on line at the moment have tail to kick.

    more to follow....

    JD
     
  12. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Tango, now those are some beautiful guns, but I would have to donate sperm, blood, bone marrow and body parts until I was 100 lbs and I would still have to sell my first born to buy one of those...lol
     
  13. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay Darin, let's work backwards here, since Tango has given you a couple of high end, really GREAT platforms.

    You want a 5" @ 500 yards ( that is Minute of Angle ) rifle. You want a bolt gun, it would appear.

    What are you willing to pay for the rifle and the upgrades ( minus or including optics and please make this a real world number ).

    As a rule of thumb for a SERIOUS rifle, the scope should cost AT LEAST as much as the rifle action you choose. If you choose a custom action ( around $1000 and up ) then your scope should cost at least that much to take advantage of it.

    For example, the rifle in my signature was $3800 spec'd out by me. The scope was another grand on top of that. That is a .308 that will shoot the lights out and I have targets that are SUB moa out to 300 and I have hits at 600 yards with regularity.

    That said, the .308 is really a 600 or 650 yard round. Yes, it will shoot out to 1,000, but it's nowhere near the best choice for that distance. That is why I have a custom 7mm mag in the shop waiting to be finished currently. That will be my 1,000 yard gun....

    So, how big do you want to play? From there, we can spec you out a rifle to fit your needs and your budget.

    JD
     
  14. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Thanks for the help JD. I was thinking this would be an entry level gun, and the reason for the 308 was because I don't know any better. There are so many rounds out there and all of which I have no idea what they are for and I can't find any good info to research. Another question I guess would be is the 308 good for what I want or is there a better/cheaper alternative (Ammo wise, since I want to be "accurate" and do not know how to reload yet, I will be buying match grade)?

    I was hoping for sub $1000 rifle. Then as money became available I would upgrade the stock, the lugs, bolt face and so on.

    I don't know how good the chamber work is on the factory guns, but I'm pretty sure all the major brands out there do the absolute min. This is the reason I was looking at the 700. Good barrel, good length (unless a 22" bbl is sufficient, then I would look at the Savages), good trigger group and from what I've heard a great action.

    Basically, I was looking to get a starter gun and upgrade later. I just can't afford to drop a ton all at once. The most expensive thing I've bought at once was my Kimber at $730 and I thought I was going to pass out for a while.

    Thanks again JD and everyone else.

    EDIT: I vaguely understand the concept of MOA. When I wrote 5" @ 500 yards, I meant 3 shots inside a 5" circle at 500 yards. I thought 5 MOA was 5/8" (1 MOA=1/8") or is that wrong?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  15. wolfdog

    wolfdog New Member

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    Buy a Savage FP, buy a good scope and rings, break barrel in correctly. You will have to shoot an awefull lot before your skills will be needing a platform better than the Savage. Gabob's son Robbie has an out of the box savage 308 that I have seen him knock down chickens and pigs at 600 yards, just about every shot. I have watched him hit same sized plates at 1000 yards 4 out of 5 shots. Could I do it? not on your life, but the rifle is capible of it, the skill to do it takes a lot of practice. You want to get into long range shooting, that is the platform to start with.
     
  16. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    I thought the M1's and M1A's were 30-06? If I could get an M1A or M14 I would in a heartbeat.
     
  17. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    1 MOA is roughly 1" at 100 yards or 5" at 500 yards. 1 MOA is really 1.047"

    For a good solid sub $1k gun look at a savage with a 308 bolt face and go from there. Barrels are simple to swap out and you can get them in just about any caliber you want.

    I want a 260 rem (6.5-308) or a 25-08. I like them calibers the best for medimum distance shooting. I have also thought about going with a 300WSM.

    Check out http://www.6mmbr.com/ and take a look at some of the custom jobs over there.

    You can make any rifle accurate but look around here one guy just took a remmy 700 and it ended up costing him about the same amount as it would have to go with a $1300 Stiller or Surgeon action.

    You can get Savage action and Howa barreled action cheaper then get you a nice high end stock for it. McMillan are great Bell & Carlson are good there is also Brown Precision out of Northern CA they make some dam fine stocks you also have h-s precision.

    Yo can also take a stock gun like the remmy or savage and send it to Hill Country Rifle. they will do a complete action job on it and it will be more accurate. Hill Country Rifle
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  18. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    From minute of angle

    Minute of Angle (MOA) is the term used as the standard for measuring the accuracy of a hunting rifle. You can also use minute of angle as a means of measuring the size of an animal’s target zone. In the simplest terms, there are 360 degrees in a circle, each degree has 60 minutes. The calculated distance extended to a target at 100 yards is 1.047 inches or “one-minute.” This number is just a crosshair over “one inch” and to make calculating easier, most all hunters and shooters use “one inch,” this is called “shooter’s minute of angle.” In terms of accuracy, if a hunter and his/her rifle can shoot three or five rounds and have them group inside one inch at 100 yards, then you have a minute of angle group, or a minute of angle rifle.
     
  19. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Darin - Easy. Just breath brother, there is a ton to digest, but you don't need to do it all at once. :p

    The FIRST I am going to recommend is that you spend $30 and pick up a copy of John Plaster's Ultimate Sniper. Don't buy it here, it can be had at Amazon for much cheaper.

    This book was where I started my journey that led me to my first rifle decision, that led me to my gunsmith, that led me down the road of squeezing the utmost accuracy out of every piece of gear I have. It is a very informative, very easy and very compeling read. I have recommended it time and again to people looking for their first stick and it has yet to let me, or the other person, down.

    Having said that, .308 is a GREAT first round if you understand the dynamics and the limitations of the round. This is not a 1,000 yard round. Yes, it will travel to a 1,000 yards, but it's effective out to about 650. After that, the limits of physics take over and it's capable but not the best possible choice.

    Federal Gold Medal Match is what I shoot in mine. I had my chamber cut SPECIFICALLY for that one round. I bought a case when I got the rifle and I bought another case when that was gone. This is explained in the book, but buying a case at a time insures that you don't have to make subtle changes from box to box. This stuff is amazingly accurate for off the shelf ammo and I have won quite a bit of money and bragging rights using "factory" ammo in my rifle.

    Now. $1000 is a good starting point, but is that with, or without, optics? Keep in mind that if your weapon is $1K, you probably should have a $500 scope to take advantage of the benefits of the weapon. You don't NEED to do that, but it's a rule of shop thumb ( which are bloodied and black upon occassion. :rolleyes: ).

    Minute of Angle. This is a term that "roughly" means that for every 100 yards from barrel crown to target, your pattern is 1" for 3 rounds. 1" at 100 yards. 3" at 300 yards. 5" at 500 yards. And so on.

    A SUB moa rifle is a rifle that will shoot 3 rounds into a group that is BELOW that number. Basically, if you shoot a group that is 1.98" at 200 yards, that is a "sub" MOA rifle. However a group of 1" at 200 yards is a true HALF MOA rifle and is a REAL keeper.

    By a way of measure. My .308 has proven to shoot sub moa groups in my hands. I have one target that was less than 2 inches for 3 shots at 300 yards. That is truly good, but not GREAT or Olympic caliber accuracy. Not that the rifle could not compete at that level in the hands of a better shooter, I have no doubt it can do better, but in my hands, that is ACCURACY enough for my needs.

    Barrel Length: This is a common debated topic that is FILLED with Interwebz Mythos. I can personally tell you these facts:

    1. My first build was the rifle in my signature line, but it had a 28" tapered barrel with a muzzle break. I was "totally" sold on the Quigley: Down Under theory that a longer barrel meant longer, accurate shots. :rolleyes:
    2. After about 6 months, I had the barrel cut down to save weight and it was chopped off at 24"
    3. This weapon is scheduled to be re-barreled with a 20" Bull Barrel in the near future. :cool:
    4. We have several "police & SWAT" units that have 20" Bull Barrel "sniper" rifles.
    A 20" BULL barrel is a perfect length for "urban" work in my opinion. By "urban" I mean shots within a City if you need to, which would be out to 350 or 400 yards.

    So, does any of that help? Or do you still want to have a 26" factory rifle?

    JD
     
  20. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    Ok first,
    Tango. Thanks between you, Cane and JD I understand MOA. Surprise, surprise, once again what I thought I understood I really didn't have the slightest clue.

    I know that when all is said and done, I will probably have close to $1800 minus optics on this gun, but dropping $1800 at once would be marital suicide. Hell $1300 would probably cause me to walk with a limp for a while.

    You are one of several people that have recommended the 260 and the 25-08. I am going to research these rounds some more.

    Cane. Thanks for the links I appreciate how you always give a technical definition and then slap it into laymens terms for the guys who aren't as well educated. Thanks again

    JD. Yeah Sub$1000 for just the gun NIB no optics.

    I'll get that book. Seeing how this is my first longer range gun, I HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS that I will be able to shoot well at 300 yards let alone 500 until I have had a lot of practice. Just like Wolfdog said I highly doubt I could outshoot a Redryder BB gun let alone any name brand bolt gun I would buy. If the day comes I am capable of 500+ yard shots consistently I will first dance a little jig and then buy a 338 lapua:eek::cool:.

    As far as barrel length, until I read your post I thought that barrel length was closely associated with accuracy. That was the sole reason I was looking at the big green monster. Being told a 20" or 22" would serve my "purpose" opens up a lot options. Specifically brand wise.

    Thanks again guys, I appreciate the help.
    Darin