Handgun discussion thrown off course...

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by KellyTTE, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    First, people try and choose 'fighting/shtf/whatever' weapons based on looks, feel, all sorts of crap, none of which is anything more than a training/mindset issue. Get over it. Here's a good for instance. I offer free training, about once a month. Hundreds if not thousands of people read these posts on multiple forums (here, glocktalk, ar-15, etc). Free. Hell, donate 10.00 to help cover targets if you want. FREE. Did I mention free? How many take me up on it? 3 - 5 usually. Most don't like the fact that its not a day of bumpfire and general asshattery and that real training is tough. Wanna be hard? Train hard. The reality is that most people are sheep who are totally unprepared for when the wolf comes knocking. But its easier to be blissfully ignorant than to train hard.

    Its even harder to swallow your when someone is trying to say, hey, your choices are 'farked up and in front' and you have to face the fact that you're not experienced enough to realize that you don't know what you don't know. I've been there (not knowing what I don't know). Now its my turn to try and help people move from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence at the very least.

    Saying 'Glocks suck' is simply baiting. Specifically: I don't like aftermarket 1911's (no, I'm not including mil-spec weapons) because I see to many of them fail during training & practice. I don't like XD's because I've seen too many of them fail during training & practice. I don't like DPMS and Olympic ARs because I've seen too many of them fail during training & practice. I don't simply say X sucks, period, I try to speak from either personal experience or trusted sources (people who shoot people for a living) whenever possible.

    No, war gods don't piss on Glocks to make them any more amazing or beautiful, but when it needs to go bang, Glocks seem to have their sh!t together.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  2. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    I knew that comment I made about Glocks would set you off....lol.

    Just trying to have fun with you, that's all.

    Though we were talking about XDs and Glocks, not training. Who on this forum doesn't train hard? You sayin you're more hard core than the rest of us?

    I just wanted to mess with you because you had no right to jump on the OP's reasoning behind choosing the XD over the Glock. Both are great pistols, I've seen both models jam up (and I don't want to hear any crap about "limp-wristing" or anything). Heck, I've seen an old Beretta outperform a Glock. All pistols can jam occasionally. It's a fact of life.

    The least you could do is be supportive of the OPs choice of weapon, and try to give him useful advice regarding his new purchase.
     

  3. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Kelly - No offense, but if you and your buddies are going to spend all day running down my gear, making fun of me for purchasing sling X when OBVIOUSLY Sling Y should have been purchased and generally have no interest in the common "sheeple" being there because they don't have that magic 1% mindset, why would you expect people would be beating down your door?

    It appears that no one can really make the right choice if it isn't one that you and your friends use daily. I'm sorry, but there are other teams out there, there are other people who train and there are other people who "shoot people for a living" that do indeed feel differently about some of the products that your friends don't like.

    It's a big world dude, and somewhere in it there could be the next big thing and it could end up being stamped with a company name you don't like ( Olympic Arms, DPMS, High End 1911 ltd, what have you )
     
  4. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    You can come to my training if you want, KellyTTE.

    :cool:
     
  5. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    Despite what you might think, I'm no Glock kool-ade drinker. If I had the funds, I'd be converting to S&W M&P9s. I consider them to be a 'product improved' platform.

    Why? He gets a pass on a bad decision? If you post a decision on an open forum, then you take the good with the bad. Tough titty for him.

    Actually, I don't really say a lot about peoples gear selection. Most of the time, it sorts itself out. Slings break, rifles die, holsters tear, vests fail. Ahhhhh yes the sweet taste of low price with a hint of bitter buyers remorse.*chuckles*
     
  6. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    And this is exactly what I am talking about. You sound just exactly like every other Elite Team Fighter on the Internetz. Someone who thinks that only the gear he and his merry men have personally signed, sealed and approved is "worthy" to enter into Asgard and grace the very halls of Valhalla itself.

    You mind if I ask you a question, completely off the OP's topic, but I seriously have a question and I want to know if you are going to be okay with me asking it here, or would you prefer a PM?

    You see, I have read some of the stuff on your site. The reviews and stuff. It's all quite nice stuff. Weapons cases from $350. Flash suppressors from $120 to $150. This, that, and the other high end, tactical unit of the moment. Great stuff, it would appear, but not a hell of a lot of it would actually fit into a standard US Military Soldier's budget, or the common working man for that matter.

    But, I digress, I have an honest question - would you be willing to answer it truthfully in the open? Or would you prefer a PM?

    Thanks,
     
  7. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    KellyTTE:
    Why is his decision bad? XD is a perfectly good choice.

    KellyTTE:
    What gear/weapon selections do you use? Inform us "non-informed" types on this forum.

    KellyTTE:
    9mm? Really? Figured since you seem "in the loop" tactically, you'd be choosing a caliber that has a better track record. Maybe a .40 S&W, or a .45 ACP?. What about 10mm? Your choice in the end, though. Why don't you try the Ruger SR9? Same capacity as the MP9, and it's a little cheaper on the wallet. Just a thought.


    P.S. I looked at your past qualifications on your website, and I now understand why you are displaying the holier than thou attitude. Do you display this with any students you may have instructed? You are not representing yourself well as a credible instructor by acting like a douche bag on this forum. How about you maintain some professionalism? Get you head out of your ***, and use this as an opportunity to teach someone, rather than being insulting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  8. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    Unlike your mentioned example, I put my opinions out there in the light of day. No masks, no hidden agendas. I accept no advertising and most of the gear I get gets returned or donated.

    You might be surprised what soldiers will buy for them selves. Yes there are 350.00 cases (UKi and higher end Hardiggs) but there are also entry level Hardigg cases (sub 150.00 online) as well as lots of good solid sub 50.00 gear, belts, gloves, etc, etc.

    I'll meet you half-way. PM me and so long as it doesn't violate my site internal policies regarding neutrality or pose a conflict of interest, we'll make it public.
     
  9. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    Too many failures in training, lack of readily available parts, SA suppressing aftermarket access to armorers manuals. Sorry, that doesn't add up to a 'good choice' to me and I'm not going to sugar coat the problems that I've seen with my own eyes.

    Honestly, most of my gear is custom made. The quality is outstanding and the cost is very reasonable. My slings are mostly John Willis (SOE Original gear > 30.00), my current war belts and plate carrier are David Bosen (Coyote Tactical), but I did purchase one Eagle plate carrier for a whopping 65.00 shipped.

    With a few exceptions my rifles are ARs and almost all are Colt (bought used at a discount), LMT or Sabre (also carefully shopped for price). Quality can be very affordable. All my pistols are Glocks, 17/26/21, for training consistency excluding one custom 1911.

    Caliber discussions are dumb. In the end a lot of calibers have killed a lot of people.

    Horrible trigger, and even worse trigger reset. I was actually a P89 fan for many years, but the SR9 is an abomination.

    No where on my site do I claim to be any type of instructor. I hold training days where ANYONE can bring up a desired area that they want to work on and we ALL work on it together. Military, LE, Civilian. I'm not 'holier than thou' but I will call a spade a spade. If you give dumbed down advice, I'm going to call you out on it. But don't kill the messenger. If that offends you, then you might as well put me on ignore. You have every right to post what you think, but that doesn't earn you a pass when the information stinks to high heaven.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  10. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    KellyTTE:
    The SR9 is actually a fine firearm in my opinion. Good accuracy, and can throw those 9mm pills out there (accurately) for quite a distance. Good ergonomics, and the 17+1 capacity is an outstanding feature. I don't think you can get better deal for around 450 dollars or less. I can't see how purchasing an MP9 is a good decision to me. Why waste your hard earned money on something that doesn't really offer anything different than the other products on the market? I think it would be smarter to take the 650-750 dollars or so that you would spend on a MP9, and buy an SR9, some extra magazines, maybe a nice tactical light, and some ammo/cleaning kits, or any other shooting related things you may want or need.

    Since my opinion is different than yours, does that mean I'm uninformed?

    KellyTTE:
    Caliber discussions are dumb, but basically calling someone stupid for making their own choice on a firearm for their own reasons is not?

    Sorry if I seem harsh, but you ruined any credibility your website may have brought you by the stupid comment you made to iVTEC. Professional firearms reviewers/instructors do not talk down to other people because that person's reasoning may differ from the reviewer/instructor. Be a professional, and use that as an opportunity to maybe bestow some knowledge and mentorship on the forum.

    KellyTTE:
    KellyTTE:
    How is your advice better? It all comes down to the same thing which is your opinion vs someone else's opinion. You believe the XD is not a smart purchase. I believe for the general public, it is a smart purchase. You have your reasons, I have my reasons. How is your opinion better than my opinion? Glocks can break down in training too. Big deal. So the aftermarket can't get an armorers manual from SA. Why would that matter to the regular person just wanting to buy an XD for basic home defense? Explain the failures the XD experienced in training, and how those failures are different than the failures experienced by other people with different types of firearms when performing the same type of training?

    It's all opinion. Debating is great, and is a great way to learn from other people, but telling someone "you fail at this stage of life" is not acceptable in my opinion. Act your age...............
     
  11. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Relevance? I haven't accepted anything that I have spoken about either. But I refuse to believe that if I don't buy your "Approved Kit", I am going to die in a horrible moment of "buyers remorse". I know how to operate my weapons. I also inspect my weapons for wear and tear. If something is going to suddenly "go wrong" it would probably show me signs of it much earlier that catastrophic failure and now the Space Zombies are eating my brain.


    Actually no I wouldn't, we deal with soldiers all the time. However I also know what a soldier makes, especially one with a family and more mouths to feed than just his own. Just like the members of the forum here.


    Done.
     
  12. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    I see plenty of new M&P 9mm and Glock 17s all over gunbroker within 40.00 of comparable SR9s. And considering that the SR9 is a new weapon, I'd say trusting your life to an mostly unvetted weapon that has already had one serious recall would fit into the category of uninformed decision.

    Rejecting a weapon, based on looks, despite information, widely available regarding the second weapons overall performance, quality, reliability and servicability (information widely available) is dumb, sorry.

    Heck don't believe me about XDs, poll any cutting edge pistol instructor, Larry Vickers, James Yeager, LMS Defense, Magpul Dynamics, etc, and you'll notice a few things. None of the instructors run XDs and NONE of them have much nice to say about them. Here's a good drill that no-go's the XD:

    Weak-hand only, do a reload with the XD covered in baby oil (to simulate a bloody gun). I can execute some ugly-*** one handed reloads with a lot of guns. That list does not include any flavor of XD because of the grip safety slidelock.

    FAIL

    At what point did I waive my right to laugh at a dumbass comment because I was a writer? What? Sometimes mentoring means looking at someone in front of everyone and saying: 'Dude, you are fncked up and in front'. I've been there, I've heard it. Sucks. You correct and move on.

    You think what you think, I think what I think. Let it go. If iVEC wants to defend himself, let him do it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  13. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    What about the number of reported kB!s (KA-BOOMS) that are circulating out there? You are making a point about how an XD won't reload while covered in baby oil, when there are reports of Glocks going BOOM in people's hands.

    The SR9 is not a new design. It's new to Ruger, but there's nothing new in regards to it's striker fired design. Suggested MSRP on a MP9 runs between 650-750 dollars. Those are some good deals on that MP9, if you are finding it close to the price of an SR9.

    The SR9 being recalled has no bearing on the argument. The recall was because of a drop safety problem which has been fixed.

    This exerpt was taken from http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%203.htm
    Looks like the Glock brand which you use has also had some recall experiences. You are calling my opinion uninformed because the SR9 had a recall, when the Glock pistols you use, have had not just one recall, but 4 total on this webpage alone, and one of those recalls involves the possibility of an unintentional discharge!

    Heck, my Hi-Point C9 and JCP .45 have a better service record in the recall area then your Glocks, and they are about 400 dollars less in price to purchase.

    Seems like your decisions are pretty uninformed also.....bummer.....

    FAIL!!!!!!!!!!

    EDIT: I checked the same recall site again, and I counted right around 58 recalls/warnings under Smith and Wesson versus 12 recalls/warnings under Ruger. I'll stick with the Ruger SR9 versus the Smith and Wesson MP9.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  14. KellyTTE

    KellyTTE New Member

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    I'm saying that the SR9 has only been on the Market for 9 months. I was at SHOT 08 and talked to them at length about it. The Glock has been in service, what, 20+ years?

    3 entries for Glock. 13 for Ruger. ;)

    Statistically speaking, your using a logical fallacy to try and make your argument. Sorry.

    And if you carry a Hi-Point of ANY sort for self defense, you have my sincerest condolences. Anyhow, like I said, you think what you think. I'll think what I think. Have a nice day. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  15. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    KellyTTE:
    3 entries for Glock pistols. 0 entries for Springfield pistols. ;)

    XD wins.

    KellyTTE:
    Thanks, but I don't need any condolences. My C9 shot better than an HK P7 the other day. I'm not worried the least bit in regards to my utility gun.

    KellyTTE:
    Thanks. You have a nice day too. Best of luck in your future reviews on your website.
     
  16. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Interesting discussion you kids got going here with lots of good and bad advice/opinions based on the real world as was the discussion that originated the whole thing .

    First lets start with subject of the original thread .

    We have someone who is an admitted noob who appears to have fired one handgun and handled one other one and is going gaga over which one to buy .

    With so many here who have been shooting perhaps longer than the kid has been alive and so many claiming to be instructors did anyone think to ask him why he is limiting his choice to just these two weapons with so little experience ? What's his main purpose for the gun ?

    All of the plastic breeds as well as the alloy frames are all designed for comfortable all day carry , this guy obviously hasn't the experience for that .

    Did anyone think to mention to him that autos come with the need for spare magazines at the average cost of nearly $50 a pop . I don't know about you folks but there isn't a single auto pistol or rifle that I own and don't have a minimum of 4 spare magazines for .

    KellyTTE you should be ashamed to consider yourself worthy of "training anyone if you actually believe that this

    is a valid position to have.

    Why does someone have to "Get over it" with dozens of options on the market of fine fighting pistols ? O BTW the "Feel" issue is indeed a huge one if a gun feels uncomfortable in ones hand few will shoot such a gun well .

    You have some valid points such as

    But the base problem isn't really a lack of training as it is lack of determined mindset .

    Fact of the matter is not only the majority but the vast majority of gun owners that have them strictly for home defense act like they are a Magic talisman like a Cross or a clove of garlic they'll just wave around in front of a Hollywood Vampire and make them run away . It may work but if one is shaking like a Barney Fife does and a criminal takes notice odds are you wont have that gun for long .

    Too many times on internet forums people get into whizzing contests over "Training" , but what should people be training for ?

    None of us will ever find ourselves in either a home or street engagement that will require us to fire a hundred + rounds now will we ? How many even have enough rounds sitting at home in magazines to even entertain such nonsense ? So honestly how valid is an argument against a gun that jams after several hundred rounds fired while at a "Training" school , or even a hundred or 50 for that matter ?

    Then you talk about gear what gear ? Hell in most home defense shootings in the middle of the night the closest thing to "Gear" most men will be wearing is their underware at 3am .

    Most training that the average citizen really needs are simple things that have nothing to do with the gun , Like paying attention and seeing that gang of punks wandering around in the parking lot at 9pm and going to a different store for their milk or late night snack . Taking their cell phone out of their ear , locking the car , and home front door .

    Want to train someone ? Train them to point shoot in a darkened room , train them to engage two or three targets effectively and quickly . Hell train them to field strip the gun once a month and give it a shot of BreakFree on the slide rails .

    Even better get them to understand that regardless of how many schools they have been to none of it means Jack if all they do is go home and drop the gun in a safe or drawer and think that five years from now their training is going to do them any good if they haven't touched it .

    If you guys want to get excited about guns get excited about the ones that have a record of catastrophic failures that render them completely inoperable like apparently the Glock does have .

    Gaston Glock himself said that he designed the thing because cops and soldiers carry them and never use them far more often than they fire them and while yes most firefights are limited engagements I would rather have a gun in my hand the designer was thinking "How can I make this a better fighting gun" rather than "Gee lets make sure it isn't so heavy people have to wear a belt to keep their pants up carrying it" and all of the plastic designs follow suit .

    Plastic is for your Kitchen Trashcan , Steel is for a fighting gun buy a HighPower , CZ , S&W or a grand old 1911 made of metal and a belt to hold your pants up , everything else belongs in Kmarts Toy section next to the Super Soakers .
     
  17. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    "Sometimes best to be thought a fool, than to open yer yap and remove all doubt."

    I don't know who coined this phrase, but it certainly applies to one poster in this thread.

    Now there's a statement that will cause intelligent folks to seek training elsewhere. Sounds like everyone should wear the same shoes, because comfort is universal, right? :rolleyes:

    uuuhhh, pssst........ mindset is best achieved with a weapon that fits the shooter..... check yer instructors manual on page one. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  18. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    It's one of these people...

    : Abraham Lincoln, George Eliot, Groucho Marx, Albert Einstein, and a mysterious figure named Silvan Engel.

    No one really knows for sure, but it's and excellent saying... one of my favorites.
     
  19. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    There is some serious verbal-volley going on here. Sort of a "my thing is better than your thing" mentallity. I tried 5 Glocks... don't like em'. I tried XD's and their OK, didn't buy one though. I tried S&W M&P's they're OK, I bought one. I tried CZ75B, I like it I bought it. I tried CZ97, I like it I bought it. I tried CZ83, I like it too and bought it. I tried a Ruger P345, I like it and bought for my polymer frame 45. I tried a S&W 410S w/laser I liked it, I bought it. If I try another Glock and happen to like it, I'll buy one... My point being, I don't give a flip sh!t what anyone else thinks about these weapons. If I like it, I BUY IT.
     
  20. Franciscomv

    Franciscomv New Member

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    I'm no gun expert, I'm not an instructor, LEO, super commando type or anything like that. I shoot because I enjoy it and because I believe in being prepared. So this is just an amateur's opinion.

    At least for me, finding a gun aesthetically pleasing is very important. If I really like a gun, I shoot it more often and get better results quicker. A 4" .357 wheelgun might not be most people's idea of a perfect gun, but I like my S&W 686 so much and shoot it so often that I've become a lot more accurate with it than with any semiauto I've tried (in good defensive calibers).

    So should I get a Glock? It probably is a better weapon, but there's a subjective part to the human/gun equation that needs to be taken into account. Besides the gun's objective qualities (ammo capacity, reliability, price, etc.) one has to consider the shooter's preferences as well.

    I think any handgun is a compromise and every shooter has to decide which features he wants in a gun and which ones he's willing to trade to make it fit his purpose better.

    There are tons of good guns. Why should I settle for one that just works well when I can find one that works well and pleases my eyes too? Is my CZ75 better than a Glock 17? It's better for ME, since I really like it and enjoy shooting it often. Even if it was a bit mechanically inferior to a Glock the extra practice would make up for it.