Gun Rights, and Carrying, vs. Property Rights.

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Dallas53, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    this subject comes up a lot, especially when discussing the right to carry, the 2nd Amendment, and whether the right to carry trumps the rights or wishes of a property owner. some also confuse the distinction between private property and public property, with some thinking that just because a business or establishment is open to public traffic, is public property. and that a residence is private property, but a privately owned business is not.

    now i am very pro-gun, very pro-2nd Amendment, but also very pro-property rights of the individual, as well as any business or establishment, whether they be owned by an individual, or a group such a corporation.

    my viewpoint has always been that regardless of whether a business, or establishment wants to prohibit guns being carried upon the confines of their premises, of whether i disagree or not, is irrelevant. it's their property, and as such, i think that respecting their wishes, or rules is paramount, to also obeying the law, regardless of whether it's just a misdemeanor or even more serious. if a business posts a sign, i will respect those desires and rules of the property owner and take my business elsewhere. i have always felt it was just that simple to obey the law, and to also at the same time to respect the rights of the property owner. as property owner and part owner in family business, i would expect, and do demand that same courtesy if i wished to prohibit guns being carried upon our premises.

    but, at the same time, there are those who believe that the right to bear arms, and to carry, trumps those rights of the property owner. that right is absolute, and unwaivering, and without limits or consequences. it's as if they believe that laws regarding property rights apply to them because of the 2nd Amendment. that no rights have limits or restrictions.
     
  2. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Different states have different laws. Out here in Bumfugg, businesses can disallow open carrying of weapons. Violators can be reported to law enforcement. Concealed carry is another matter. Anyone with a concealed pistol permit may ignore printed signs forbidding concealed carry unless specifically instructed by the property owner or his representative (employee, etc.) After being told to remove the weapon from the premise, the visitor must comply or he can be charged with trespassing.
    I agree that businesses are private property regarding trespassing and firearms carrying. The same is not true about photography. Press can photograph anyone at the mall or donut shop because they are in public. So businesses can be public or private depending on circumstances.
     

  3. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whoever owns property has the right to say who, or who may not enter his property.
     
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  4. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    Ah but an open to the public business owner doesn't really have that right do they.

    Try telling someone of insert your religion here, that they cannot enter your store. Or remain in it as long as they are not purposefully creating a disturbance .See how far that flies. Religion is a choice. A choice that is protected in the BOR . It trumps your property right as a business owner .

    You can tell a person of a certain religion not to enter your residence or your not open to the public land. Because you haven't opened it to the public.
    Not your open to the public business.

    Carrying a gun is a choice as well. Protected by the same BOR.
    In alot of states it trumps open to the public landowners property rights. KY is one of those states which I will use as an example.
    Here my right to be armed trumps property rights period
    I cannot be disarmed simply because I'm on someone's property that doesn't like it. Period. Business or residence.
    I can't be charged with anything either. Speaking to STATE law. Not federal gun bans which affect very little .

    Now. That said. I have the right to be armed every where in this state.

    I don't however have a right to BE everywhere in this state with a gun or without.
    A property owner can put up a no trespassing sign. I can be charged with a misdemeanor if I pass it. Armed or not armed.

    Or I can be told to leave a store or home etc just because I'm not wanted there. Gun or no gun.

    Everything hinged on trespassing. There is no law that criminalizes carry here except concealed carry with no permit. The state constitution does not allow it. Nor the COTUS.
    Being denied entry or asked to leave. Verbally. If you do that's it. If not could be charged with trespassing.
    Tenn proposed a bill last year that would make business owners responsible for injuries suffered by anyone during a crime in that business if the business prohibited guns. Not sure if it passed or not. It should
     
  5. 67stingray

    67stingray Member

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    Dallas, I totally agree with you that a person has the right to restrict what is brought onto there property. That being said you and I have the right to decide where we do business and who we give our money. There has been a quite a few times that a store or restaurant has lost my business for there decision to post no firearms signs, I have absolutely no problem spending my money elsewhere.
     
  6. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    That's a good stance. But with all due respect the store never missed your money and likely could care less.

    And if you live where that particular store is the only place you can get the item you need without a 40 mi drive one way it changes things a bit. That store that has up the no gun sign is more likely to be robbed as not.

    A GFZ, is a potential killing field, and the blood spilled in one falls just as much on the person that created it as it does the criminal that spilled it.
     
  7. Balota

    Balota ... but I used to play keyboards.

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    I am well aware of Dallas' strongly held opinion about the pecking order between property rights and 2A rights. I don't entirely agree with that opinion, though as a practical matter, I often avoid posted GFZs and try to take my business elsewhere.

    But I like Ghost's analogy. It doesn't seem reasonable that a business owner can tell someone they don't want the gun they rightfully choose to carry, but cannot tell someone they don't want the religion they rightfully choose to profess. Both are choices protected by the BoR.

    I think there is a significant difference between guns and religion. Religion is also protected under civil rights law. Guns, not so much. But I don't think that difference should affect my right to carry wherever I go.

    I normally open carry. I can understand a shop owner not wanting people to open carry based on their belief that their other customers may be disturbed when seeing a gun openly carried. And to the extent I can, I am willing to carry concealed if I'm planning to go to their store (perhaps due to having no other good options for that merchandise). If I am detected and asked to leave, I will leave immediately based on the trespass issue. But I do not believe that the shop owners property right should trump my right to carry.

    In States where the GFZ sign has immediate enforceability (without warning regarding trespass), I believe the State statute providing that enforceability should be found unconstitutional. Just my opinion.
     
  8. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    I refuse to shop at a B&M store with a no gun sign. And many stores are struggling to survive. I went in a mall this weekend, and was shocked at how many stores boarded up.

    I have been known to call smaller businesses and tell the manager or owner I was refused entry and had to go shop at {competitor} store to purchase my product.
     
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  9. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    My experience, other customers thank me for carrying. Also had other workers thank me. One hardware store owner encourages me to carry.
     
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  10. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    exactly my point. if a business or establishment decides they want to prohibit the carrying of a firearm, then i think it's my duty to respect that decision whether i disagree with it or not, but, in disagreement, i will choose to do my business with others instead that are more receptive of my right to carry. in the end, i have done my due diligence in obeying the law, but still retained the ability to carry for personal protection.

    no one has the conclusion that GFZ's are not fertile killing grounds for those who would commit heinous murder for whatever reason. but in the end, that is still the choice of the property owner to make as to whether they want to prohibit the carrying of firearms.

    and in this day and age, with the internet, and online shopping, i would venture that your 40 mile drive argument falls a bit short of being true anymore. after all i do lots of online shopping for things i want, instead of going into town and doing my shopping. i do so for several reasons, the major one being economical, secondly it's much easier to have what i want delivered without setting foot outside the house, and much easier to shop from my computer. and there is very little that i can't get online and have delivered right to the house.

    and to mention what you said in previous post about trespassing? that "No Guns" sign stated the property owner's intentions, and that by entering with a firearm does in the eyes of the law, makes you a trespasser, and therefor, a lawbreaker.

    so that brings up a very important question. by carrying past a sign and ignoring the intents or rules of the property owner, do you then decide which laws do, or don't apply to you?

    some would contend that in of itself would suggest anarchy, and i would agree. simply put, there are many laws i disagree with, but i will still obey them because they are the law. how is it that you have the right to decide which laws are there for you to abide by?
     
  11. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This thread won’t last two days. Agree to disagree.
     
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  12. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    as long as everyone remains civil and respectful, i can't see why not.
     
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  13. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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  14. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    [QUOTE="Dallas53, post: 1893743,

    and to mention what you said in previous post about trespassing? that "No Guns" sign stated the property owner's intentions, and that by entering with a firearm does in the eyes of the law, makes you a trespasser, and therefor, a lawbreaker.

    so that brings up a very important question. by carrying past a sign and ignoring the intents or rules of the property owner, do you then decide which laws do, or don't apply to you?

    some would contend that in of itself would suggest anarchy, and i would agree. simply put, there are many laws i disagree with, but i will still obey them because they are the law. how is it that you have the right to decide which laws are there for you to abide by?[/QUOTE]

    All due respect. You would first have to be correct about the owners no gun sign making one guilty of trespassing in my and several other states.
    It doesn't. Only a no trespassing sign will do that here or a verbal statement one is trespassing.
    If a business wants to put up a no trespassing sign at the entrance to the store go ahead.
    The no gun sign has no legal standing at all here. It's wasted paper and ink.
    Passing one with a gun breaks no law here. Because I have the right to be armed in this state on your property and you have no say about that.

    Now. Follow me here. I'm not getting this clear enough. My bad.

    Gun or no gun you can ask me to leave your property . Until you do no law here has been broken. If I leave when still no law is broken.

    It's I don't regardless of gun or not I'm trespassing.
    Any state with no force of law signage works this way. As those states acknowledge the rtkaba trumps property rights. So carry on someone's property breaks no law.
    However BEING on private property armed or not armed may well be up to the land owner except in one or two instances particular to my state.
    In short I can open carry in this state past your no gun sign in front of a cop and he can do nothing.
    I've broken no law.
    If you then ask me to leave and I do I've still broken no law.
    Only if you verbally ask me to leave and I refuse am I breaking a law that has nothing to do with guns. Trespassing. That's all. No revoking of CCDW, probably nothing at all but a little talk with a cop or a 25 dollar payable fine at worst.

    A landowners rules are not laws here. Just wishful thinking where guns are concerned
     
  15. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Active Member

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    If your carrying and it is concealed let it at that. My dentist office has a no weapons sign. I asked why. They told me some of the patients complained about others who were armed. I said do you ever see me with a gun? No we have not. I said take care and left.
     
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  16. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    Why?

    Nobody is disrespectful to anyone that I see.
    Just a healthy discussion. And yeah I'm kinda new.
     
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  17. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This train is going to derail. It’s fun to watch. Grab some popcorn and beer and sit by me. I will tell you when to look right before impact.
     
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  18. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    Lol hopefully not
    Hopefully not lol.
    I've no I'll will at anyone.
    And I didn't take Dallas saying I was a lawbreaker personally
    He simply didn't understand the way no gun signage is in KY and like states.
    Heck it took me forever to get my bro in law in tx to understand it. TX is so much more oppressive in their gun laws it's understandable.
     
  19. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    All due respect. You would first have to be correct about the owners no gun sign making one guilty of trespassing in my and several other states.
    It doesn't. Only a no trespassing sign will do that here or a verbal statement one is trespassing.
    If a business wants to put up a no trespassing sign at the entrance to the store go ahead.
    The no gun sign has no legal standing at all here. It's wasted paper and ink.
    Passing one with a gun breaks no law here. Because I have the right to be armed in this state on your property and you have no say about that.

    Now. Follow me here. I'm not getting this clear enough. My bad.

    Gun or no gun you can ask me to leave your property . Until you do no law here has been broken. If I leave when still no law is broken.

    It's I don't regardless of gun or not I'm trespassing.
    Any state with no force of law signage works this way. As those states acknowledge the rtkaba trumps property rights. So carry on someone's property breaks no law.
    However BEING on private property armed or not armed may well be up to the land owner except in one or two instances particular to my state.
    In short I can open carry in this state past your no gun sign in front of a cop and he can do nothing.
    I've broken no law.
    If you then ask me to leave and I do I've still broken no law.
    Only if you verbally ask me to leave and I refuse am I breaking a law that has nothing to do with guns. Trespassing. That's all. No revoking of CCDW, probably nothing at all but a little talk with a cop or a 25 dollar payable fine at worst.

    A landowners rules are not laws here. Just wishful thinking where guns are concerned[/QUOTE]

    looking over the state of Kentucky's gun laws, it appears they do seem to be a bit unique.

    but in the state of Texas, trespassing is still considered a very serious criminal act, and it's taken very seriously. and in Texas, just having the sign isn't necessarily the force of law so to speak, but the sign does carry the intentions of the property owner's wishes. which means in Texas, they don't have to go up to you and ask you to leave. all they have to is pick up the phone and call the police and have you arrested. see, your warning, doesn't have to be verbal, it can be written and in the "No Guns" sign you chose to ignore when you walked past it armed. and yes, carrying past a "No guns" sign can be considered trespassing in the state of Texas.

    and you are incorrect. a landowners rules are law if the laws of the state back up the rules of the landowner, or property owner. you can't just come onto my property and borrow my things without permission, or go into my business and take something without paying for it without consequences. why do you think that carrying a gun into my business or onto my property gives you rights that over-rule my rights as property owner? they don't IMO.
     
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  20. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    i don't see the gun laws in Texas as being oppressive in comparison to many other states. no, they aren't perfect, but they also find a good balance between the right to carry and the rights of the property owner.

    also i did not mean the use of the word lawbreaker as an insult, only used as an illustrative point of the subject.
     
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