Good Defensive Shoot?

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by WonderingMind, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. WonderingMind

    WonderingMind New Member

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    This one was done by the Albuquerque PD. The first link is the raw video from a helmet cam on one of the LEOs. I don't want to prejudice anyone's opinions on this, so I will refrain from commenting further until I have seen what experienced shooters and LEOs think. The second link is for a local news segment showing parts of the first video, the Police Chief's press conference and a local lawyer's views.

    http://up.anv.bz/latest/anvload.html?key=eyJtIjoiTElOIiwicCI6ImRlZmF1bHQiLCJ2IjoiMjQzNjcxIn0=

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7pnUjEY1xE&feature=player_embedded
     
  2. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    Defensive shoot my ass, the guy was walking away. They just got tired of dealing with the guy. This is what our country is coming to... The most those officers will get it is fired. If any of us shot a guy like that and tried to claim self defense, we'd be going to jail in a heart beat. And then to keep shooting him with the bean bags and letting the dog loose again? Seriously?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014

  3. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I can see about a half-dozen non-lethal options available here that APD chose to ignore. The police chief's equivocating notwithstanding, there will be trouble--and rightly so--over this one. I rarely find myself in agreement with the ACLU or in opposition to LEOs defending themselves, but this is one time when it's pretty plain they wanted to ice this dude.
     
  4. Donn

    Donn Active Member

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    I could be wrong, but I believe the helmet cam footage will be the officer's undoing. If it were just their word, the "Knife in his hand" story might float. But the video? You don't have to be a CSI to see this is not a good shoot.
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    We have between 600,000 and 900,000 full time police officers in the US according to who's numbers you believe. We have 120,000 Federal officers in the US. With that many police officers we are bound to have some rotten eggs. Even when the officer is proven to be a rotten egg it is hard to get rid of him. Even departments that do not have a union require a long drawn out process of reviews and hearings to let an officer go.

    Many officers do believe they are above the law or the people they are supposed to be serving are maggots that need to be locked up guilty or not. These officers should be weeded out quickly. They make a tough job harder for officers who truly want to serve and protect us all.

    I am thankful to be in an area where the deputies we have are dedicated to our community. Every one of our deputies could walk away to a substantial raise in pay by simply getting a job at a larger department.
     
  6. WonderingMind

    WonderingMind New Member

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    In any human endeavor there will be those who put personal gain ahead of the one main rule for interpersonal interaction, cause no harm by force or fraud. This is why Progressivism/socialism/communism fails so badly, there is no method built into the system to protect the individual from the excesses of the majority. If we were ants or bees socialism would likely work very well for us, but we aren't and it doesn't.

    That said, I am interested in your reaction to this shooting specifically. Or, more accurately I am wondering what details I missed if anything in this video. Thus I am waiting for the verdict of experienced shooters and those who have a much deeper understanding of the legalities of a defensive shoot. I am still a novice as yet, and I consider this thread just one more line item in my quest to gain enough knowledge to figure out if I am on the track of wisdom or if I am still wandering the woods of ignorance looking for the path.
     
  7. clr8ter

    clr8ter New Member

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    Yeah, good shoot my ass. Although, it was pretty clear that the guy DID have a knife in his hand. After he was down, though, it'd be a HUGE stretch to call him a threat. If it were up to me, there would be no long drawn out process for cases like this. They would be fired within the week, and brought up on charges the same day. And in my opinion, anybody caught breaking the law would be forever barred from holding any kind of LEO job, EVER, no second chance.
     
  8. vincent

    vincent New Member

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    What he said...

    The hit him with the beanbag shots after they shot him in the back???

    They use the dog after they shot him in the back???

    Did the coroner taze him too just to be on the safe side???

    Cold blooded murder, plain and simple...:mad:
     
  9. TDS92A

    TDS92A New Member Supporter

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    Not meaning to beat this horse anymore, but there was nothing justified about that shooting. The K9 officer was not in any danger. If he perceived that he was, he could have released the dog.

    After the suspect was down, the threat was reduced. I could see releasing the dog to occupy the suspect until the officers could move in to take control. Shooting the suspect with the bean bag rounds while he was on the ground was unnecessary.

    Flash bang devices are only effective inside a room where the light and sound would have maximum effect.

    I saw no taser devices being deployed ( I could only watch the "youtube" version).

    Suffice it to say, this shooting was totally wrong.
     
  10. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have 40+ years in LE with SWAT experience and I agree this was totally unjustified use of lethal force.:mad: The kicker is when they called for 'bean bag' AFTER they had used lethal force. If the 'less than lethal' option was available for a person armed with 'knifes' it should have been used FIRST! There was NO opportunity to harm anyone as he had 'knifes' in BOTH HANDS!! Ability was there because he was 'armed' and most of all no one was in danger! :mad:
    This is exactly the kind of thing I have been fearing would happen with the poor training given to the new generation of LEO's.:(
    Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  11. clr8ter

    clr8ter New Member

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    Wait, I'm confused. Did they shoot the guy with a gun? And he died?
     
  12. WonderingMind

    WonderingMind New Member

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    That would tend to be the consensus...
     
  13. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

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    After any similar incident here , it must be investigated by the police ombudsman, is there any similar system in American.

     
  14. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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  15. clr8ter

    clr8ter New Member

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    People HERE said that??
     
  16. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    Not people. Just one guy.
     
  17. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    Geeze. One one hand, the victim had a history of violence including busting an officer in the nose AND he had a knife in his hand. On the other hand, he WAS turning to get down, and they bean-bagged him AND let the dog at him AFTER he was down.

    I think they could've given him more time to get down, and if he didn't, THEN bean-bag him. At least try that BEFORE using bullets. Maybe they needed a bigger bean-bag gun. Something big enough to knock him on him butt.

    I wouldn't call that ground particularly smooth, but for the sake of argument I'll concede he'd be able to scamper over it. What the hell was the K-9 officer doing being close enough to risk being stabbed.

    I'm not confident the that officer that shot him, the one with the larcenous bent, is a particularly good decision maker.

    It was handled poorly.
     
  18. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "handled poorly":confused:?? I think that is a bit of an understatement when you have a 'citizen' KILLED by the government for not legal, moral or ethical reason, don't you?????:(
     
  19. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    Yes.

    ..................
     
  20. WonderingMind

    WonderingMind New Member

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    It seems that the universal consensus here is that is was NOT a good shoot. I am going to give my analysis. Please note that I am NOT a LEO, nor am I an experienced shooter. I am largely self taught and I bought my first firearm the day after our current POTUS's reelection. I have since done quite a bit of research into the legal and moral aspects of use of force situations and much of the training I have paid for focuses on that subject.

    So here goes..

    According to reports this situation had been ongoing for several hours, judging by the quality and brightness of the camera footage I would estimate that the video was taken just after sunset and it was beginning to get dark. It would have been darker to the people who where there then the camera would show. It gets noticeably darker though the four minute video and later the guy with the helmet cam uses the light on his rifle to assist in the search of the subject's camp storage site.

    In the video you can hear conversation between the LEOs and the subject, from the tone it seems to me that the LEO's patience is exhausted. It appears that the subject was picking up his bags in readiness to leave the area.

    At 52 seconds the helmet camera guys says "do it" while they are deploying a flash-bang. It was used in an open area while the subject was turned slightly away from where it detonated reducing its effectiveness.

    Then the LEO's stated yelling for the subject to get on the ground while the K9 officer approaches and releases his dog. The dog jumps up and bites then releases and grabs a bag off the ground and brings it to the K9 officer. The dog was between the handler and the subject and it would appear to me that the dog did not perceive the subject as a threat since it returned to its handler with some of the subject's possessions. This would indicate to me that the K9 officer and the dog needs further and immediate remedial training. (On the subject of large dogs, I have been around them all my life and have extensive obedience and behavioral training experience with dogs in a civilian pet context)

    At 58 seconds the subject draws a knife in each hand after dropping his bags. He takes about a quarter step forward towards the K9 officer then turns his body away and leans towards the ground it what appears to me to be compliance to orders. Initially he was standing on a grade facing down hill. The natural tendency would be to turn and lay down so that his head was at higher level then his feet, it appears that he was doing exactly that.

    The subject was then fired upon by two LEOs with rifles. The first made the decision to open fire and the other responded likewise. Although I think that the second LEO only opened fire in response the the first LEO's fire. However, since the second LEO's fire takes place so soon after the first one opens fire both were responding to what is in my opinion faulty training. They saw an escalating threat where the threat was in actuality deescalating resulting in 6 shots fired and an unknown number of hits.

    Further, both rifle wielding LEOs were BEHIND the K9 officer and the LEO with the Bean Bag shotguns did not seem to have a clear line of sight to the subject just prior and a bit after the shooting of the subject. Also, the bean bags COULD have been deployed rather then immediately resorting to lethal force.

    After the subject goes prone on his belly the LEOs move up. At this point the subject is not very responsive and only moves a leg in response to the LEO's commands to drop the knives. A LEO deploys the bean bag shot gun and shoots the subject. One LEO makes the statement "Negative Effect" when the subject dose not move after being shot three times with the bean bags.

    The subject did not respond to the dog biting him. At this point he is very likely deceased yet at no point in this video did any of the LEOs make any attempt to summon EMS or even determine if the subject is even alive.

    My conclusion is that this was NOT a good shoot. While I know that a person with a knife drawn is extremely dangerous, this subject was turning away and preparing to lay down on the ground when he was shot. Overall I find the whole situation disgusting and not representative of the level of professionalism that one normally expects (and gets) from the LE community. I believe that every LEO on that site at that time should be fired and barred from further LE employment. Further, the two rifle shooters should be held on criminal charges.

    This really makes me angry since I see the poor handling of this situation as yet another wedge driven between the citizenry at large and LE.