Good defense ammo...

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by AzRT, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. MattJan18

    MattJan18 Member

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    What's some good SD ammo for a 12 ga shotgun? I just ordered my first off my gun club.
     
  2. SRK97

    SRK97 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My preferred ammo would be Remington #1 buckshot. If you cant find it any brand of 00 buck or #4 buck will do the job fine.
     

  3. 303tom

    303tom Well-Known Member

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    I keep my 922 loaded with these !............
     

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  4. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    #4 buckshot and up. buy several brands and try it out to see which one has the tightest pattern. this also depends upon the shotgun and it's choke. many shotguns sold with the shorter barrels for self defense do not have screw-in choke tubes, but simply a choked barrel.

    to pattern one is easy. all you need is some large sheets of cardboard and some way to hold it. testing at about 10-12 yards should be quite sufficient for determining what is best and tightest for home defense type situations. will also give you an idea as to what recoil to expect and what is the most accurate, and where it the bulk of the shot is hitting the target at. different brands may perform differently, so that is why i suggest testing and practicing to know what it will do, rather than thinking what it might do.
     
  5. harkersislandnc

    harkersislandnc Well-Known Member

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    I am a fan of the Heavy Shot Coyote blends. Works wonders on critters arounds hte house.
     
  6. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Very good advise. There are several 'reduced recoil' loads out there, usualy 8 pellet OO buck, which work very well in the 12 ga. I still say the 20 ga with the 20 pellet #3 buck is all you need, but to each is own!;)
     
  7. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    nothing wrong with a 20 ga. loaded with buckshot. part of the reason i suggest more for 12 ga. is local availability. 12 ga.s is just so much more common. our local Walmart does carry 20 ga. ammo. but most all they carry are the target or hunting loads.

    but if you have gun store that stocks 20 ga. buckshot, and you have a 20 ga. shotgun, then it will suffice to work just as well for home defense.
     
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  8. arrowsmith

    arrowsmith New Member

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  9. arrowsmith

    arrowsmith New Member

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    Sir, I have read your reply to my blog about using reloads for self defense, and I appreciate your points view. I live in Ohio and our gun laws are fairly liberal. Our county prosecutor, Mr Joe Deters is definately on the side of the victum. I was in a firearms training business with The Honorable Don Shott ( Ret.) , a common pleas court judge. Judge Shott did our use of deadly force segment, and he, never failed to stress that using handloads for self defence was a very bad idea.
    Respectfuly submitted,
    Sam
     
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  10. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    i'm sorry, but i have heard that same myth for probably more than twenty years. and so far, no one has been able to cite one court case that was decided upon guilt or innocence, based upon person having and using reloaded ammo. now if you care to prove me wrong, then by all means please present the court cases for everyone to see.

    if you are sitting in court defending and justifying your use of deadly force, you got much bigger problems than the choice of ammo, or firearm you used.

    sometimes i carry reloads of my own making in my pistols. i have zero fear in carrying them.
     
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  11. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have been advised by at least half a dozen lawyers, to include a District Attorney not to use hand loads for defence.

    Maybe there has never been a case to link to, but these are the subject matter experts.
    If half a dozen medical doctors tell me not to take aspirin, I won't take it. They are the experts. When half a dozen lawyers tell me not to use hand loads, I won't use them.

    I realize experts are not always right, but I believe they have far more knowledge in their field than I do, so their probability of being right is far greater than mine.

    When expert advice is available, I usually pay heed to it.
     
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  12. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    i understand what you're saying and i partly agree, and partly disagree. personally i think it's perpetration of old information that's being passed along. this advice might have been true twenty or thirty years ago if a person was in court defending their use of justified deadly force in self defense. but many states have passed Castle Laws, Stand Your Ground Laws and no obligation to retreat if in fear for your life, which have greatly expanded the rights of justified self defense. which is good IMO for the law abiding gun owner.

    when the "experts" are doling out this advice, then they need to back it up with concrete proof, of actual court cases where it has happened. and so far from my past experience, this is just not the case. real criminal cases where guilt or innocence was decided because of the choice of ammo, or the firearm used in self defense, being the deciding factor of the verdict. so far no one has shown me those cases yet.

    now, i'm not going to say it could never happen, and if a person lived in very anti-gun state or city, with a very anti-gun prosecutor, judge and potential jury pool, then yes, there is the possibility that using homemade handloads could be used as evidence by the prosecutor to portray the shooter as a blood thirsty killer. but i would also argue that in such a situation, even when the deadly use of force was used in a justified self defense shooting, the shooter in that case was screwed from the get go for using a firearm in self defense, and it wouldn't really matter what ammo, or firearms he used in that situation.

    if in state with very good gun laws that help protect the law abiding gun owner using deadly force in justified self defense shooting, if a person is sitting in court defending that usage, then something the defendant said, or did, caused suspicion to be raised to where the police, the prosecutor and the grand jury felt that the circumstances warranted going to trial. even in the politically, and racially motivated case of George Zimmerman shooting of Trayvon Martin, the issue and fact of the gun Zimmerman used was barely even touched in that trial. now in civil lawsuit, it's different story. the burden of proof is much less than in criminal trial. it could be a hinging factor in deciding the judgement in such a case. but many states with Castle Laws, and other similar laws, they also have provisions that make the use of deadly force in justified self defense shooting, that make a law abiding citizen immune from civil litigation.

    i'm not going to presume to tell anyone what ammo, or what firearms they should use for carrying, or self defense. not my place by any means. simply stating my thoughts and opinions based on many years of hearing these myths being perpetrated, with no concrete proof of them being fact. that is why i have little feat of carrying reloads in my firearms. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
     
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  13. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dallas, you're probably right as far as crinimal cases go.

    But the lawyers told me that the thing to worry about is the INEVITABLE civil suit that follows.

    Criminal laws requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and a unanimous verdict of the jury.

    Civil law only requires a preponderance of evidence and a simple majority of the jury. A much lower standard.
     
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  14. jigs-n-fixture

    jigs-n-fixture Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I think it would be highly dependent on your location. In the county I live in, the majority of jurors are from families that shoot (90% of households hunt), and probably at least twenty percent reload. The local gun shops, have as much or more shelf space devoted to components as loaded ammo, and reloading gear is a constant seller. Couple that with the general reluctance to sue over things, and more reliance on finding a neutral arbiter. I doubt anyone could successfully sue me here.

    Now, in counties where guns are rare you could end up with a jury that would convict.
     
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  15. Viking

    Viking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, civil suits by family members that often say what a good person the BG was, heard that before.
     
  16. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    All due respect. Many states including mine if the shoot is justified there will be NO civil case.

    A civil case in many states is far from inevitable.

    Ammo will have no bearing on a self defence case in court.
    You have admitted you shot the person on purpose. That action can reasonably be expected to cause their demise.

    The only question remaining is by the laws of one's state was the shoot justifiable or not.

    Thats it and that's all.

    Now. To the OP question. At the moment I'm carrying Arma reloads.
    Probably the last couple boxes in existence. They loaded for local police depts hot with xtp bullets

    My wife is loaded with Pdx1 +p.
    The same thing I will load with once I deem the Arma to old to carry.
    Other than the Arma, PDX1 +p.
    In 9mm SD ammo for us is always +p.
     
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  17. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    i understand what you're saying. and you are exactly correct. the burden of proof in civil trial is much less than what is required to convict in a criminal trial by a long shot.

    but in state where the laws make a person immune from civil litigation if the self defense shooting was justified and righteous, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other as to the ammo that was used was factory, or handloads. the only issue would be was the shooting justified, and righteous under the laws of that state.

    now, in state where a person wasn't immune if they were sued by the family, or the "victim", (and i use the term "victim" in a very sarcastic manner!) then using factory ammo probably would be a better choice. and i can even understand that as well.

    but these so-called experts need to start presenting facts, and stating the difference between civil litigation and criminal proceedings, since there is huge difference. and basing facts upon what really happens, and based upon the laws, rather than just making such statements as being fact, when so far that has not been the case.

    in very gun unfriendly state, or city, carrying or having a gun, then using it justified self defense was that person's first mistake. it's quite likely they won't get a fair shake once they go to trial. they are going to try and portray the law abiding shooter as bad, and evil, and as a blood thirsty killer. while at the same time the "victim", even though he had a long record of criminal behavior as being "innocent" and whatever they can come up with to make them appear blameless.
     
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  18. EnPassant

    EnPassant Member

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    Gentlemen... I believe we've covered all the points well enough and should shake hands and agree to disagree on this one. Each person has enough to go on now, and should consult a local criminal law attorney or two to decide their own course of action and which ammo to use. Personally, I go along with the idea of carrying the factory ammo the local LE officers do. If a prosecuting attorney tries to use your choice of ammo against you then he's openly condemning local LE as being bloodthirsty, too. I don't live in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, or Boston, so that boat should float. The fact that you expended your entire magazine, reloaded, and then emptied that one into your assailant, too, might be a different problem.
    "I'm sorry, Your Honor - I got excited," might not work in that instance.
     
  19. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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  20. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What he said!:cool: I would add to stay away from any of the 'magic' light weight non expanding bullets until you see actual shooting results from them. And if you are going to carry any extra mags USE THEM ALL to make sure they all function properly with your selection of ammo. Be safe.:)