Good defense ammo...

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by AzRT, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    IIRC, it has been re-named a few times since it was first brought out under the name "Black Talon"

    Ranger SXT was just one of them.
     
  2. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    As far as I know the burden of proof still lies with the defendant in all 50 states. It is the defendant that must prove Justified Self Defense.

    Florida however has a proposed bill that would do as you say and shift the burden of proof from the defendant onto the prosecutor.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/15/us/stand-your-ground-florida.html

    http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/index.ssf/2017/03/floridas_stand_your_ground_law.html

     

  3. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    Legal experts disagree that total silence is golden.

    http://www.secondcalldefense.org/after-shooting-steps

    1)Officer, this person attacked me.

    2)I will sign the complaint.

    3)Here is the evidence (whatever tool the assailant used to attack you).

    4)These are the witnesses (if there are any).

    5)You will have my full cooperation within 24 hours after I meet with my attorney. Until then, I wish to assert my 5th Amendment right and remain silent.
     
  4. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    not so in Texas either. here a couple of links to sources that can explain it better than i can.

    this one dated Sept, 2016. using the second paragraph.

    http://blog.uslawshield.com/castle-doctrine/

    this one dated Jan. 2013. using the fourth paragraph.

    https://www.texasfirearmscoalition..../41-the-truth-about-the-texas-castle-doctrine

    https://www.versustexas.com/criminal/castle-doctrine-texas/

    https://www.************.com/forums...-castle-doctrine-stand-your-ground-101-a.html

    but the key words to remember are justified and reasonable. in Texas, there is no duty to retreat. IOW's, in my home, i don't have to retreat before being able to legally use deadly force in self defense. if i'm somewhere, or anywhere i have legal right to be, there is no duty to retreat before legally able to use deadly force.

    even if you use deadly force in self defense, it's still possible you may be arrested, and have to post bond. this while the DA's office, or the court does their fact finding to determine if the use of deadly force was justified and reasonable.

    some people mistakenly think that shooting someone and claiming self defense is get out of jail free card and that just isn't the case. it just means the burden of proof to determine that the shooting wasn't justified and reasonable falls upon the prosecutor and the courts, not the defendant.
     
  5. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    your sentence #5 is exactly what i was referring to. and if you called 911, as a person should have immediately, all of that is now part of the record as well.

    and the statement i was told was to say you were in fear for your life. give your name as well. then after asserting you wish to speak to your attorney, legally, the cops can't talk to anymore. can they arrest you? of course they can.

    i read this thread written by a member sometime last year, and it was very well written and went into much detail about how to handle the events after a self defense shooting. i'll let you read it and see what you think. personally, it is pretty danged close to what my own attorneys have told me to do.

    http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f17/read-before-you-decide-carry-67036/
     
  6. CaptMidnight

    CaptMidnight New Member Supporter

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    Choose the right Attorney to defend you? :D I expect your chance is better choosing the wining horse at the Kentucky Derby.:D
     
  7. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    This is incorrect.

    It is up to the defendant (the shooter) to prove that the shooting was justified.

    http://www.useofforce.us/

    More here.

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hayes-SDLaw.pdf
     
  8. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It don't matter what the 'law' is in your state. ALL self defense is based on 'Reasonable, articulateable FEAR'. If you are talking deadly force the fear must be of 'serious boldly injury or death' to you or others! The only facts that can be considered is the information you had when you make this determination, in other words only what you knew AT THE TIME you used the 'force'!! Each incident has it's own dynamics so it is hard to give specific advice on how to handle the aftermath unless you are addressing this specific incident. That said, what I advise my students is to be cautious about what they say to the initial investigators. I teach specific terminology. And tell them if they don't feel comfortable discussing it with the investigators simply say "I am to upset right now to discuss it" and if they prosiest then play the attorney card even if you have no intention in getting one. As a general rule you should have nothing to fear from an investigation if you were right, but what happened in the Zimmerman case defies this logic, as he was 100% right and was persecuted not prosecuted! :mad:
    RE AMMO: Any SD ammo that is designed for your weapon manufactured by the major manufactures, except the 'magic' bullets, will be fine as long as it is reliable in your specific firearm:)!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  9. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    Found it. The guys name was Harold Fish.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/#.WPtpZPnyuUk

    Not only the Hollow Point, but also his big bad 10mm.

     
  10. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    see, we are mincing legal terms! this is why i suggest it's best to remain silent and allow your attorney to do the talking.

    see the attorney can present the facts to show justification. the DA and the police are going to collect the evidence, and your statement made in the presence of your attorney and talk to any witness' if there are any to determine the facts surrounding the shooting.

    just like the shooting last month i believe it was in Oklahoma, where the young man shot the three intruders with an AR. the DA went public and stated given the evidence and the circumstances, they would not be seeking any charges against the young man who did the shooting as his actions were completely justified.
     
  11. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4[/ame]

    http://www.handgunforum.net/ccw/9326-massad-ayoob-s-5-things-do-after-involved-shooting.html

    This one goes into detail as to why you say what you NEED to say.

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/20/massad-ayoob-5-things-to-know-after-a-defensive-shooting/
     
  12. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ayoob, another LEO want-a be!!!:(
     
    Ghost1958 likes this.
  13. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Harold Fish screwed up. he made statements and those were used against him. he felt he did the right thing, and thought he could talk to the police and everything would be okay. nope. their job is to collect evidence, and his statements to the police were part of that evidence.

    he should have kept his mouth shut and called an attorney.

    and the bullets and the 10mm handgun? the prosecutor and the jurors were total idiots! of course the bullets are meant to kill. just sheer stupidity on their part. okay, lets look at it from this viewpoint, does someone who is shot and killed by a 44 magnum, mor dead than someone shot and killed with a 22? dead is dead. there is no such thing as more dead or any other stupid crap such as that.

    and in the very last paragraph, they were in the process of changing the law, to put the burden of proof upon the prosecutor, not the defendant.

    here's one to ponder on. any one of us that carries a gun, or has a gun at home for protection, could always potentially end up in the same situation as Harold Fish. fact is, it can happen.
     
  14. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thankfully this case, and the Zimmerman case, are the exaction, not the rule!;)
     
  15. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    see, it still comes back to #5. talk to your attorney first. everything Massad Ayoob says in paragraph #5 is exactly why you should not talk without your attorney present when giving a formal statement to the police. everything he says in that paragraph just reinforces why i said what i said about keeping your mouth shut until your attorney is there and you have had time to dicuss it with him.
     
  16. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ALWAYS and NEVER seldom work in the real world!!!;)
     
  17. 1911man

    1911man Member

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    No it does not. It says tell the police that.

    1) you feared for your life.

    2) show them any evidence at the scene.

    3) Tel the Police you will give a Statement after you speak to an attorney.

    Nowhere does Mas or any legal eagle say to shut up and say nothing until an attorney is present.

    If you clam up, key witnesses and key evidence may be lost or missed and reduce your chances of acquittal.

    It is imperative that one follow Mas's advice and talk to the police, but keep it simple and only the four things listed. Clamming up will reduce your chances to claim justified homicide later.
     
  18. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    none of that is a formal statement which is the point i was referring to. and my own attorneys have said to keep my mouth shut until they are present when giving a statement. and yes, one of them in the office, practices criminal law and is gun owner and recreational shooter who does carry.

    all i have to say initially is that i was in fear for my life, or that i was attacked. if there are witness's, yes, i would point them out, if any evidence is present, then yes, i would also point that out. but none of that is giving a formal statement, which is exactly when you need the presence of your attorney before speaking any further. again, i will reiterate to keep my mouth shut after that point. anything you say can be used against you in court by the prosecutor, if they decide to pursue charges. the police are not your friend. they are there to gather evidence to determine what exactly happened.
     
  19. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    politely declining further questioning until you have consulted with your attorney is pretty much keeping your mouth shut IMO. and further backs up what my attorneys have told me to do.

    and as they are my attorneys, it's their advice i will adhere to. if i ever need to.
     
  20. tinbucket

    tinbucket Well-Known Member

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    I load Hornady XTPs in .357 and .44.
    Haven't tried them in 9mm or 10mm but I suspect their performance is very good too.
    I load for more velocity in the two calibers mentioned.
    I tired the Liberty Civil Defense 9m rounds. They really rocket out of the HiPower.
    left some nice holes in Sweet Gum stump.
    I like the design and published performance data. Hope I don't ffnd out how they do in real life. Kinda pricey at over a dollar a round.