Glock Sight Picture Question?

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by brointheknow, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. brointheknow

    brointheknow New Member

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    I have a G17 which I love, but I've been having trouble the last two range sessions I've been on in regards to my sights.

    Everytime I shoot 10 or 15 yards I line up my sights perfectly, but the rounds keep going to the left of the bulls eye and never in dead center. I'm a left handed shooter and shoot Weaver.

    Standard G17 with no upgrades.
    Trigger pull is consistent and nothing that I've seen or the range master sees which will make them think it's the trigger pull.

    Question is this. Have any you Glock owners on here ever had trouble with their sights moving just a fraction or so?

    Thanks
     
  2. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) Sights off? Why, are either of your sights physically loose? Does your rear sight appear to be centered on the slide? (You might try getting a sight pusher and moving the rear sight ever so slightly to the right; but, I don't think this is, really, going to do you any good.)

    So, the Range Master sees nothing wrong? OK! Then, 'Why' hasn't anyone told you that: (1) 15 yards ain't going to tell you a whole lot about what's wrong; and, (2) in all likelihood, it's your grip that is off!

    The principal culprit I'd look for here is whether or not you're tightening your fingers (milking the grip) while you are squeezing the trigger. This is a very common problem with shooters who are not used to firing pistols with trigger safeties.

    There is, also, a secondary issue with the thumb of the shooting hand. Some shooters simply apply too much thumb pressure to the pistol's frame. If you really want to check your sights then, sit down, sandbag your wrists, (or brace them on top of your range bag) and with both your wrists AND the pistol firmly braced shoot a few slow-fire sets at distances beyond 15 yards.

    I'd, also, be curious to know whether or not you're firing from the trigger's reset position? Personally, I'll bet the problem is with your grip. (Weaver, by the way, is old technology. Nobody who knows what he's doing with a pistol is using it, anymore, and with good reason, too.)

    Your gun hand should be holding that Glock in a front-to-back grip just like you were holding a pack of loose playing cards by the edges. Your support hand should be jammed up tight underneath the triggerguard. 60% of the grip pressure should come from your support hand which exerts pressure in, both, a backward and a downward direction. 40% of the grip pressure should come from your gun hand which acts, more or less, as a captive of the support hand. When you front the target, your elbows should be fairly straight and even.

    You direct the pistol's muzzle with your shoulders and absorb recoil from the elbows - not your wrists. Here, 'Lurper' should be able to straighten you right out:

    Lurper, On The Proper Grip
     

  3. brointheknow

    brointheknow New Member

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    The rear sight looks perfectly centered and nothing is loose. I've done everything you've stated, but still no luck on centering the rounds. The reason I shoot Weaver is because I'm about to become a police officer out here in California if all goes well and I don't want myself to be a huge target.

    Also, I do use the trigger reset and all my shots still go in the same place. I do notice that I do keep my left arm stiff as a board when shooting. Could this be an issue as you stated?
     
  4. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) Well, quite frankly, I don't know of any modern police agency who is still teaching Weaver - Modified Weaver, maybe, but certainly not the classic Weaver grip and stance. (But, then again, you did say; 'California' so who knows what's going on in that Communist state?) ;)

    Yes, yes, yes! When you're working with a pistol at speed in repetitive fire, you should be firing from your shoulders and absorbing the recoil with your elbows. Did you look at Lurper's video about, 'Proper grip'. He carries the concept all the way back to the shoulders just like he should.

    If you jam yourself up on one side, (The left in your case) then your tendons and muscle reflexes will pull your shots off to that side. You need to FRONT THE TARGET WITH BOTH SHOULDERS.

    Do NOT withdraw your strong side foot into a classic Weaver stance. Instead, work the pistol with BOTH SHOULDERS AND WITH BOTH ELBOWS. When you do this correctly, you will discover the triangle that's formed between both shoulders with the pistol at the apex becomes YOUR RIFLE STOCK!

    Your stance will be very solid. Even under significant stress, your muscular/skeletal reflexes will remain balanced. You will be better able to work with rapid fire recoil; AND, you will have more control over your front sight, too.

    You, also, need to remember that you are going to be wearing a bulletproof vest. Every vest's greatest vulnerability is at the armpit and side panels. In a gunfight, you do NOT want to expose either of your sides to the other gunman's fire! You do not! (Allow the vest to do its job!)

    Relax, front the target, jam your support hand up tight underneath the triggerguard, and then slightly rotate your support hand downward in order to line up the pistol's front sight with your (dominant) gun hand eye. Make sure your hand pressure on the pistol is strictly front-to-back with the support hand, also, contributing a certain amount of downward pressure to the grip - especially during rapid fire.

    Correctly firing from reset is almost an, 'art'. Ideally, after the shot goes off, you want your trigger finger to be ever so slightly ahead of the reset point - with the trigger actually chasing it forward. At the reset point, you should bring your trigger finger - again, ever so slightly - backward into the trigger in order to fire the next shot. (This takes some practice to learn.)

    The only other thing I'd caution you about is; 'Watch that right thumb!' Don't use it to apply any sideways pressure to the pistol's frame. (Again, just like Lurper teaches!)

    Good luck to you, Sir. :)
     
  5. brointheknow

    brointheknow New Member

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    Thanks bro that helps immensely!

    Yes California is a communist state for sure. The Liberals are choking our rights. I live in San Jose and I'm not far from San Francisco. Home of the illegals and land of those that are scared of guns.
     
  6. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    1.) Your trigger-pull is probably good. Most likely what you are doing is flinching with the shot. Try having someone load your magazine with a few dummy rounds intermixed with your live ammo. If the gun moves, you are moving anticipating the recoil.

    2.) Shooting from Weaver will not have any effect on where your bullets go. While there are very good benefits from the modern Isosceles, particularly while wearing body armor, it is no more accurate than any other stance.
     
  7. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :) Nope! You need to get the facts straight! 'Brointheknow' is NOT flinching; and, shooting from Weaver WILL definitely have an adverse effect on the bullet's POI - Especially, when trying to fire quickly or while under stress. Not one top - as in, 'nobody' - IPSC or IDPA championship shooter is presently using Weaver.

    (And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Lou Chiodo, who could have taught the California Highway Patrol anything he felt like, never taught Weaver to the CHP.) ;)
     
  8. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    1.) So you're telling me that all of those people that Jeff Cooper taught how to shoot were all shooting to the left of the intended target? All the time? I find that hard to believe.

    2.) You are over-complicating things. The mantra that is normally used to help people remember what to do to hit the target is not "Stance, Equal Pressure with Both hands, Meaty Pad of the Finger on the Trigger, Focus on the Front Sight, Check your Stance again, Press the trigger." All you hear is "Front Sight, Press." Why? Because that is all you need to worry about to get your hits on target. I have hit a man-sized target, laying on my back, feet pointed away from the target, at a distance of 25 yards. Not just once, but for 2 whole magazines. That is not a stance that will ever be taught for someone to shoot in. All I did was concentrate on my front sight, and apply a slow, steady pressure to the trigger.

    It doesn't matter if he's putting too much pressure on one side or the other with his pistol. His front sight should still be center mass. If it's not center mass, then the bullet is still going where he's aiming. At some point in the firing sequence, he is moving his front sight off of the target.

    Specifically what he is doing is not following-through, although this is usually thrown in with a flinch. He is not concentrating on the target until after the shot breaks. Right before the shot breaks, he is looking up to see if he hit the target.

    3.) You're right, no major IPSC or IDPA shooter uses Weaver anymore. In fact, not many people period use Weaver anymore (the only exception of major training schools would be Front Sight). But not because it's less accurate. The Modern Isosceles is better designed for movement, more natural for a person to get into, resists a frontal charge better, offers more protection if a person is wearing body armor, and makes it easier to engage multiple targets.

    4.) And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Colonel Rex Applegate, who could have taught the OSS anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the OSS. And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Bill Jordan, who could have taught the US Border Patrol anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the USBP. And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Jeff Cooper, who could have taught the United States Marines anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the USMC.

    You can drop big names and say that so and so is teaching such and such, and it's all moot. They all teach you the same two basic principles, manipulate the trigger in a smooth rearward pull, and use the same reference point every time, whether it's the sights or a consistent 3/4 hip position.

    ETA: Chiodo never taught Isosceles either. He's using a modified Sykes-Fairbairn method. Before you drop big names to impress people, you should make sure that you know who you are referencing...
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  9. coltm4

    coltm4 New Member

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    brointheknow, you are probably pushing on the the trigger as you squeeze. if you're right handed this will cause the rounds to go to the left. i find myself doing it once in a while. take you time squeeze that trigger. inserting your finger a little bit more into the trigger guard sometimes helps depending on the size of your hand. also, practicing with a revolver also helps because of the heavier trigger pull.
    weaver stance is obsolete. the weaver stance exposes the most vulnerable gaps in you body armor (sides). you should be squaring off with your target. none of this will affect shot placement however. i'd listen to G.21.
     
  10. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    No, I did NOT say that - You did!

    However since you brought the subject up, yes, very few shooters are now doing things exactly like Cooper did. Heck, I own the identical competition holster - identical - to the one that Jeff Cooper used to wear. I don't use it anymore, though. Holster design, like so many other things, has moved on! It might help you to remember that Big Bear was a long time ago!

    Again, I didn't say most of those things either - You did! This is, no better than, your interpretation of what I said. It is, also, a gross over- simplification of the pistol shooting dynamic that isn't going to help anyone to learn how to handle a pistol, either, better or well.

    Unfortunately the internet is, too often, full of bad advice; and, everybody has to weed their way through it. If I've seen it once, I've seen it a hundred times: Some posters make worthwhile contributions; and, others just come on-line in order to flex their muscles, show off, and argue. You know, statements like; 'I can lie on my back, point my toes away from the target, and blah, blah, blah .... '

    HOW USEFUL! :D

    Who, you might ask, is really the big loser with this sort of internet theatrics? Well .... that would be anyone who's sincerely interested in learning without having to endure didactic, 'mumbo-jumbo' like; 'Front sight, press!'

    The truth is that an inane comment like; 'Front sight, press' is meaningless! It isn't going to teach a shooter anything. If you really knew the first thing about pistol training you'd realize that there are two ways to learn how to shoot: (1) Fire lots and lots of bullets and listen to inept (or greedy) instructors who parrot obscure remarks like; 'Front sight, press' or (2) train with someone who's seen all the mistakes, had to work his way through many of them with a wide variety of different students, and knows how to zero in on the root cause of many different shooting problems.

    (That wouldn't be you, now, would it?) ;)

    'Front sight, press' requires everything of the student; and, gives him nothing in return. All you're telling me by posting this nonsense is that: (1) You are prone to holding strong, ill-considered opinions. (2) You like to argue; and, (3) don't know the first thing about what you're supposed to be talking about.

    Wow, that's really something! But, who cares? :confused:

    What? Placing the front sight on COM guarantees nothing - Nothing! I don't know who you are; but, you, sure as heck, aren't someone who should be training anyone else in how to use a pistol. (And, if you are, I feel sorry for those who are unfortunate enough to be your students.)

    How, may I ask, do you know that? Such keen insight into bullets that strike with a left POI from a LEFT-HANDED shooter is contained nowhere in the Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Manual. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you; and, the more you say, the more obvious it becomes.

    So, you like to argue - OK. I'm not going to dignify or lend credence to the rest of your post; and, I feel sorry for anyone else who doesn't know better than to take you seriously. :cool:






    (One other thing: Now that you've confused the issue and ruined the thread, I'm going to let you have what little remains. Nice going!)
     
  11. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    I am not trying to make this into a Weaver vs. Isosceles debate. I have learned a long time ago that one cannot win that debate. All I'm saying is his preference for shooting Weaver is not causing him to miss the target.

    But you said:
    Now, to me, that implies that everyone shooting Weaver will be incredibly inaccurate. Again, are you saying that everyone that Cooper taught was inaccurate while shooting in rapid fire?


    You're right, it's not going to teach anyone anything. It is a mnomenic device, designed to remind the student as to what he should concentrate on. It should be used to reinforce the two primary fundamentals of marksmanship: sight picture and trigger manipulation.

    In regards to your question, I would be in number 2. As such, I have found that most problems have nothing to do with the student's stance or grip. 90% of the time, the student is not concentrating on the front sight until after the shot breaks. The other 10% of the time, the shooter is beating the crap out of the trigger.


    What does it require? Remembering to concentrate on the front sight? That's pretty much a standard for marksmanship.


    And all you're telling me by posting your nonsense is you don't understand how guns and sights work; you miss the forest for the trees, allowing yourself to get bogged down in trivial matters, but ignoring the elephant in the room; you spend a lot of time on gun websites.



    That was a text book example of what is called an anecdote or war story. These, if used sparingly and appropriately, work incredibly well to illustrate certain points. This one was used to illustrate the point that shooting a pistol is not dependent upon standing in a certain way, holding the gun just right, or wearing the right set of underwear (I am aware that you never said that; since you seem to be missing many of my rhetorical elements, this gross-exaggeration is meant to illustrate the minutiae which you are focusing on, most of which has nothing to do with marksmanship).

    We've got to be talking about something completely different here, because the part I highlighted in red has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on the internet. If the shooter is keeping the front sight on the target, and doesn't jerk or slap the trigger, then wherever that front sight goes is where the bullet goes. If he's putting too much pressure on the left side of the gun, the front sight is still center mass. Unless the shooter is somehow bending the barrel, the bullets will go where that front sight is located. What he is doing, is most likely, trying to spot his rounds, and changing his focus from the front sight to the target.

    I base that on Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting page 65, and James Yeager's Shooting Missology DVD, at the 27 minute mark.
     
  12. G21.45

    G21.45 New Member

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    :cool: First, experience has taught me not to become involved in long drawn out internet arguments. So this is going to be my last reply inside this thread. If you want to fight with me you’re just going to have to start again somewhere else.

    You seem to have completely overlooked the fact that the OP’s original question requires a remedial reply. Who cares if you, or I know how to shoot? Who cares if you, or I know how to take up slack and press a trigger? Who cares if you, or I understand not only HOW TO WATCH A FRONT SIGHT but, also, HOW TO CONTROL THAT FRONT SIGHT while watching it?

    I didn’t write those replies for you; instead, in an attempt to answer a specific question about a specific problem - I wrote them for the OP.

    In this regard, yes, a Weaver stance very well might be causing the OP to throw his shots to the left side of the target – He, as much, as admits this when he confesses to being jammed up on his left-side. I know I wouldn’t attempt to gunfight this way; and, I’m starting to suspect that neither would you.

    The big drawback to Weaver is that it lacks flexibility; you can’t work well with it when you’re either moving fast, fatigued, or under another form of stress.

    No, not everyone! Among others Jack Weaver certainly knew how to make it work; and, from where pistolcraft is today, it was a good beginning that (almost) compelled modern pistoleros to advance to those better forms of handgun-presentation that many of us are presently using.

    I have no problem with this for any student who’s far enough along to be primarily interested in tightening up his groups. As a matter of fact, I go through a similar mnemonic regimen before each range session myself.

    The salient point is whether or not I’d offer; ‘Front sight, press’ as a possible remedy to a student who kept smacking 9 or 3 o’clock on his target? The correct answer is, of course, I would not.

    All right, if you say you’re in the second category, then, I believe you; but, at the same time, I suspect the students you are dealing with tend to be older and farther along than the OP, himself. I do, however, disagree that the ability to hit well with a pistol has either little to do, or less to do, with a student’s stance or grip.

    Getting students turned around, and straightening out their stance and grip is every bit as important as learning how to focus on a front sight. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far as to say, it’s pointless to attempt to get a student to concentrate on his front sight until everything else is as correct and fully functional as it really ought to be!

    I doubt that either one of us has any real argument with that statement.

    Ha, ha, ha! I, also, spend (or, at least, I was until very recently) over $450.00 each month on ammunition alone. This being said, I’m not going to allow you to drag me into bragging on the internet. Suffice it to say that I am – and long have been – as confident with firearms as you are audacious in your remarks and opinions. ‘Missing’ anything isn’t something that I’ve ever been famous for.

    The remark remains self-serving and addresses the OP’s marksmanship dilemma in no way. It would have been better if you had left this unsaid.

    You’re trying really hard to pin that, ‘missing’ label on me – Aren’t you! ;)

    Really? You need to get out more! (Well, either, that or read more of your own stuff.)

    Here, you allow me to tar you with your own brush! That’s really an incredibly naïve remark on your part. I’ve worked with a lot of firearms instructors over all of the 5 marksmanship disciplines in which I’m certified. (And, one or two in which I’m not, but nonetheless excel.) I can’t think of any line instructor or coach I’ve worked with who would agree with what you just stated.

    Too many of the shooters I know or have known have, or had, problems that are not going to be adequately addressed by any, ‘front sight placebo’.

    As a matter of fact, if – IF – what you say were true, then, as long as everyone did nothing more than watched his front sight and pressed the trigger …. what? Nobody would ever miss anything! That simply isn’t true, though, is it. Stance, grip, trigger press, concentration, and focus are all distinct parts of the marksmanship equation.

    I’m, also, able to tell you that so is, ‘recoil management’. Something I do particularly well; and have twice received applause for from police officers in the audience who were impressed with the speed at which I’m able to accurately fire. (Took me years to learn how to do; and I’m, also, one of the few people I know who’s able to teach it – True!)

    That’s it! No more internet argument. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  13. brointheknow

    brointheknow New Member

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    So I fixed my sight picture problem. Turns out I was putting a little too much finger on the trigger and thus pulling the trigger enough to make my shots go left.
     
  14. stetson

    stetson New Member

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    Your problem is simple it the way your placing your finger and pulling the trigger.There is a website with targets available that you can print out
    that has the appropriate problem in relation to where the rounds are hitting.
    It tells you what you are doing wrong!
     
  15. brointheknow

    brointheknow New Member

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    DO you have a website address for that?
     
  16. Rentacop

    Rentacop New Member

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    Correction Target diagrams have been posted on threads on this very site . I'll try to find you a link.

    Note : Todd Jarrett recommends releasing the trigger fully after every shot so that your habits will work with any gun and any trigger system .

    Don't Believe Barack Hussein Obama!
    Barack Hussein Obama does not want you to have guns.
    If he's elected president, he and his Democrat cronies will destroy the Second Amendment.
     
  17. stetson

    stetson New Member

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    Sounds like you are jerking your fingers.There is a target available on glock talk
    I think that tells you what you are doing wrong by where you are hitting the target.I too tend to hit to the left of the target. I tend to hold the trigger to tight and jerk a bit .When I loosen my hands to a point of being so relaxed I
    start hitting the center of target.
     
  18. h8dirt

    h8dirt New Member

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    My Model 26 would shoot about 2 inches left at 50 feet. I ended up moving the rear sight to fix it. It isn't perfectly centered on the slide, but the holes in the target are centered. That's what counts. If you are confident in your grip, trigger control and sight picture, you may want to do the same.
     
  19. sgtdeath66

    sgtdeath66 New Member

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    finger plcement and trigger control, that was my first guess. important thing is that you were able to correct the problem even though people were arguing on what was right and wrong
     
  20. Recon 173

    Recon 173 New Member

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    #1. Over the many years I've been teaching new shooters, what a number of us instructors found was that the Weaver works great in tactical situations when using cover. Trouble with the Weaver is that guys who have big shoulders and women with big breasts don't do well with the Weaver because their back muscles will begin to become spasmodic causing the shooter to jerk. Once a shooter gets into the Weaver, they normally lock up pretty tight. After a couple of minutes their muscles begin to slowly knot up and jerk a little bit.

    #2. We got to the point that we instructors told our police cadets to not use the Weaver shooting stance if they had broad backs, were built like football players or had large breasts. We had the shooters use the Isosceles stance and they did much better and were able to qualify.

    #3. As a general rule, people who have stray rounds or target hits generally move in the direction of the hand that they're using because they're pulling with their wrists or back of the hand. So, if you're left handed you may be pulling to the left which is why those bullets hits are going to the left. Right handed people pull to the right. Neither group of shooters will feel themselves flinch when they pull the sights slightly off target. A person watching the shooter will often see the shooter slightly move the sight off just before the gun fires because the movement needed to pull the trigger back causes this flinch. It is so subtle that most shooters don't even know that they're doing it until somebody tells them or confirms it (videotape works well) for them. After they understand what's happening they then concentrate more on the front sight to eliminate the movement.