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Fragmented ammo question?

7K views 33 replies 7 participants last post by  N.D. 
#1 ·
This is the Hypothetical question scenario:
I was thinking of using either a 5.56MM or a 7.62x39MM carbine for home defense and I am concerned about over pen in home walls.
I don't wanna reach out & touch the neighbors so I am looking for some good (IE; reliable and reasonably accurate for its intended purpose) fragmenting or prefragmented ammo to solve this concern.
I am really hoping to get AMMO SUGGESTIONS, not advice to get a (shoulder cant take the recoil anyway) shotgun.
All AMMO SUGGESTIONS or related info will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance. :D
 
#2 ·
Ive never heard of any type of 5.56 rifle ammunition that would not go through the wall of the house. You stated your shoulder can not handle the recoil of a shotgun. You can buy a shotgun and ammunition for a shotgun that doesnt have any more recoil than a rifle that shoots 7.62 . My wife shoots my 12 guage shotgun with #8 shells in it and it doesnt hurt her arm at all. You can get recoil pads for shotguns that will help with the recoil tremendously. No weapon is better for home defense than a shotgun. especially a pump shotgun.Its a myth that all shotguns have a lot of recoil.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Ammunition Drywall Penetration Analysis Test (Adpat) - 230-Grain Forums
This is an interesting test I googled. While its not entirely scientific, the test surprisingly showed even 380 handgun rounds passing nearly/completely through three walls. Thats 6 layers of drywall! same with 9mm, 45acp and 12ga 00 buck. The least penetration was with .223/5.56 40gr v-max. Penetrated first wall with small fragments only.
Do some more research, but if you're looking at minimizing penetration with 5.56 Id look at light bullet varmint loadings such as the 40gr v-max. Another possibility would be barnes 40gr varmint grenade. Ive seen some vids on the web of them completely disintegrating passing through a grape.---Gate
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Varmint grenade link
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYigC49tnh8[/ame]
 
#4 ·
5.56mm Frangible jacket (DODIC AA40). It has a copper jacket, powdered tungsten and a nylon binder for a core.

Then there is the 5.56mm RRLP, but I am not sure what exactly it is made out of.

Both are made by Black Hills Ammunition, Inc., Rapid City, S.D.

Though I am not sure if it is available for civilian use.
 
#5 ·
5.56mm Frangible jacket (DODIC AA40). It has a copper jacket, powdered tungsten and a nylon binder for a core.

Then there is the 5.56mm RRLP, but I am not sure what exactly it is made out of.

Both are made by Black Hills Ammunition, Inc., Rapid City, S.D.

Though I am not sure if it is available for civilian use.
ShooterGirl, Black Hills has a 36gr varmint grenade loading, wonder if thats the civilian version of what you listed?
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From barnes website Varmint Grenade® | Barnes Bullets
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Introduced in 2007, the Varmint Grenade has rapidly become one of the most popular varmint bullets around. Based on a design Barnes developed for military applications, the hollow-cavity, flat-base bullet features a copper-tin composite core surrounded by a guilding-metal jacket. This extremely accurate bullet enjoys consistently high demand.
The bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities, while its highly frangible core fragments explosively on impact. Produces instant fragmentation, virtually vaporizing ground squirrels and prairie dogs, even at long range. Expending its energy early, the Varmint Grenade seldom exits large predators like bobcats and coyotes, leaving valuable pelts virtually undamaged.
For 2009, Barnes’ best-selling Varmint Grenade lineup now includes 26-grain bullets for the .204 Ruger, new 30-grain .224” bullets for .22 Hornet firearms, as well as 36-grain .224” bullets, and 50-grain .224” bullets for rifles with 1:10 or faster twists. There’s also a 62-grain .243” Varmint Grenade for 6mm rifles. While these lead-free bullets are environmentally safe, they’re deadly on prairie dogs and other varmints. The unique, instantly frangible core ends worries of ricochets.
Varmint Grenades are sold in 100- and 250-bullet packs. Factory loads are available from Black Hills Ammunition
 
#6 ·
I don't think so.

I believe that they are 55 and 60 gr respectively.

Though other companies may have used the same idea for different rounds.
 
#7 ·
Keep in mind you are in Michigan. For a significant part of the year any potential intruders will be wearing heavy clothing. Using the REALLY light .223 ammo will render the carbine nearly useless against such intruders. If the bullet will fragment in a grape, how will it pass through an insulated leather jacket and still reach the vitals?

A 50-55 gr HP would be a better choice IMHO. Even the heavier (60gr +) bullets in SP or HP will penetrate the walls MUCH less than a 9mm handgun bullet.
 
#8 ·
Ive never heard of any type of 5.56 rifle ammunition that would not go through the wall of the house. You stated your shoulder can not handle the recoil of a shotgun. You can buy a shotgun and ammunition for a shotgun that doesnt have any more recoil than a rifle that shoots 7.62 . My wife shoots my 12 guage shotgun with #8 shells in it and it doesnt hurt her arm at all. You can get recoil pads for shotguns that will help with the recoil tremendously. No weapon is better for home defense than a shotgun. especially a pump shotgun.Its a myth that all shotguns have a lot of recoil.
tiberious:

This former FFL holder has literally fired hundreds of rounds of 0 buck not to mention all the "other various types of shells" I have fired including some various types O' special purpose military and LE only ammo. I have conducted "my own penetration tests" and have every reason to draw the conclusion that (while; you have brought up the valid point that there are "low recoil loads" available ETC.) "I feel The shot gun is not the right platform for me at this time."
But I will take it under advisement, and Thank you for taking the time to post.

Please see 1ST. post above for POSTING PARAMETERS thanks.
 
#9 ·
Of note (not really directed at you). There was a few tests done with various shotgun loads, and typically they found that nothing under #4 buck would reliably penetrate to vital organs at a range of more than 3 or 4 yards.
 
#10 ·
Ammunition Drywall Penetration Analysis Test (Adpat) - 230-Grain Forums
This is an interesting test I googled. While its not entirely scientific, the test surprisingly showed even 380 handgun rounds passing nearly/completely through three walls. Thats 6 layers of drywall! same with 9mm, 45acp and 12ga 00 buck. The least penetration was with .223/5.56 40gr v-max. Penetrated first wall with small fragments only.
Do some more research, but if you're looking at minimizing penetration with 5.56 Id look at light bullet varmint loadings such as the 40gr v-max. Another possibility would be barnes 40gr varmint grenade. Ive seen some vids on the web of them completely disintegrating passing through a grape.---Gate
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Varmint grenade link
YouTube - Barnes Varmint Grenade
Gate:
Great vid loved it; thanks for the link.
and . . .
Thanks for the response, its right on target.
I have been giving these types of ammo some scrutiny and they are currently under consideration for my purpose.
Although I do wonder if the Barnes "grenade" would really be as (Lethally) effective on human predators as it appears that it will be on yotes' & varmints & if it will frag (disintegrate) when it hits drywall or not.
 
#11 ·
5.56mm Frangible jacket (DODIC AA40). It has a copper jacket, powdered tungsten and a nylon binder for a core.

Then there is the 5.56mm RRLP, but I am not sure what exactly it is made out of.

Both are made by Black Hills Ammunition, Inc., Rapid City, S.D.

Though I am not sure if it is available for civilian use.
Shooter girl:

Thanks 4 posting.

That AA40 sounds like its along the same lines as some of the ammo that Gate mentioned in his 1st post "The Barnes Varmint grenade" Black Hills is good stuff judging by their rep. so if their loading it it'll probably perform pretty well.
 
#13 ·
RE: Michigan clothes.

Keep in mind you are in Michigan. For a significant part of the year any potential intruders will be wearing heavy clothing. Using the REALLY light .223 ammo will render the carbine nearly useless against such intruders. If the bullet will fragment in a grape, how will it pass through an insulated leather jacket and still reach the vitals?
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*** A1. :) I would hope that the reason the Barnes "Grenade does what it does so easy and soon is because of the presence of a high % of moisture in the Cherry (tomatoes) and also in the Grapes as well, "this moisture" "might not" be in those layers of the heavy winter clothes as often nor even in similar percentages as it is found in the human body but then again . . .
this hypothesis may be wrong. . .

But one thing I sure would find hard to believe is the failure of even a frangible rifle round to penetrate Antarctic Michigan's' clothing.
My personal experience tells me that even a Barnes "Varmint grenade" would make it through the winter clothes but after that what damage and how deeply that damage might be I don't know.
on the over/under pen issue I would wager that "The Grenade" would at the very least knock a hole through any dry wall shot with it at close range.

Ideally or maybe not:

A volatile round like this will make it through any clothing short of a Ballistic level II vest and then make it to the vital organs with an explosive showstopper ending however the real world is never an ideal anything and neither is any ammo likely to be either.
SOOOOOOOOOOO . . .
Thats why I'm still researching and not just settling on the first whiz bang ammo I see or hear about, and the search really does have its own rewards as well ROBO. ;)
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A 50-55 gr HP would be a better choice IMHO. Even the heavier (60gr +) bullets in SP or HP will penetrate the walls MUCH less than a 9mm handgun bullet.
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*** A 2.
You very well may be right about some of the available Frangible bullets and a 50-55 GR. HP might just be the right ticket (and I'm very sure a 9 will pen more in WB) but I have to keep examining all the possibilities at least until I am able to find out 1. How a given round behaves in reality when striking both mediums IE; human Flesh/wallboard, then I will know for sure what ammo may actually be a candidate in the running for this election.

See this is very thought provoking isn't it!?

Thanks robo.:D
 
#14 ·
From what I have seen. The very light varmint grenades tend to only penetrate about six inches. Half of the requirement for an effective round by the FBI.

Maybe after I get my bonus I will purchase a few different types of ammo and test intermediate barrier penetration.
 
#15 ·
Over & Under!

Of note (not really directed at you). There was a few tests done with various shotgun loads, and typically they found that nothing under #4 buck would reliably penetrate to vital organs at a range of more than 3 or 4 yards.
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Shooter girl:

I agree!

As you mentioned shot guns using light weight SHOT (not flechette Rnds) reach a point of under pen in soft tissue at relatively close ranges, but will still over pen into the next room in most cases.
Now specialy loaded Flechette RNDS will pen/perform very well in flesh w/low recoil, unfortunatly it will (Flechette) still over pen in WB . .

Now of course I'm sure some really smart person/s will figure out a way to solve this problem.


Thanks;)
N.D.
 
#17 · (Edited)
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Shooter girl:

I agree!

As you mentioned shot guns using light weight SHOT (not flechette Rnds) reach a point of under pen in soft tissue at relatively close ranges, but will still over pen into the next room in most cases.
Now specialy loaded Flechette RNDS will pen/perform very well in flesh w/low recoil, unfortunatly it will (Flechette) still over pen in WB . .

Now of course I'm sure some really smart person/s will figure out a way to solve this problem.


Thanks;)
N.D.
That depends on building construction.

Remember the fifth safety rule. Know your weapon its capabilities, and what is beyond.
 
#19 ·
overlooked this post

From what I have seen. The very light varmint grenades tend to only penetrate about six inches. Half of the requirement for an effective round by the FBI.

Maybe after I get my bonus I will purchase a few different types of ammo and test intermediate barrier penetration.
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Shooter girl:

Thanks for the helpful info, sounds just about right for the stated purpose of HD.

My HD situation doesn't require that my loads offer the FBI required 12 in. of pen.
I'll be more than happy with 6-8" of pen ammo to be used exclusively in the house.

Thanks
N.D. ;)
 
#20 ·
I would not carry something that can not penetrate 12 inches of flesh. It looks good when you are shooting at someone squared off to you, but that really doesn't happen much. Anything less than 12 inches and you are not likely to hit multiple vital organs that will drop them quickly. Six inches and you are not likely to do significant damage to the BG unless you are taking a straight up frontal shot.
 
#21 ·
Black hills 36gr generates 1124 ft.lbs of energy. So you're dumping over 1/2 ton of energy into a 6" crater. The wound channel must be incredible.

You're looking for something with limited penetration to minimize collateral damage, so there has to be a trade off. Either less energy or more rapid expansion. A 22LR solid will prob penetrate deeper but I think the 36gr .223 will stop the fight quicker.
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Food for thought, If you get wacked in the chest with an 18lb sledge hammer, there will be zero penetration but I doubt you will be able to continue the fight. ;):D
 
#22 ·
Good logic.

I would not carry something that can not penetrate 12 inches of flesh. It looks good when you are shooting at someone squared off to you, but that really doesn't happen much. Anything less than 12 inches and you are not likely to hit multiple vital organs that will drop them quickly. Six inches and you are not likely to do significant damage to the BG unless you are taking a straight up frontal shot.
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Shooter girl:

Thank you for posting.

Your logic makes perfect sense to me;
But mostly for the needs of Military & LE, and I agree that I might not want a Duty round that wont do what I need it to do in the myriad environments that I would be operating in.

I have nothing against a round that produces 12inches of pen.
(The FBI tested and achieved that depth in jello)
as long as it stays only "in the flesh" . . of the threat that is.


I am still just a little teensy bit squeamish when it comes to any collateral damage.

(In this particular

Hypothetical scenario):

There is no room for ANY Collateral damage or friendly fire.

(I don't want my fired round/s visiting the neighbors children and tapping them ever so gently on the shoulder and saying wakie wakie eggs & Bakei . . ! :eek:

Now if I can get what (THIS HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO requires) and it comes w/ 12" to infinity of inches in flesh only penetration then I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

But "Shooter girl" I think that we both know Bullet design generally doesn't work like that.
We usually have to make less than ideal compromises . .
(in the voice of Gunny Ermy: Now troops this is for the good of the mission.) ;)

. .such as in this case.

Usually if you want to have no penetration of walls & windows
w/ the bullet remaining intact after pen. of the W/W then the bullets are usually made to achieve that requirement in such a way that (as a coincidence) they have a tendency to pen. a bit shallowly in soft flesh.

I can live with that compromise but I doubt I could or would want to live w/ myself for going the other way & the unmentionable tragedy occurred,

Having said all that; I still have not made any candidate selections yet.

Your opinions are appreciated & taken under advisement.

Thanks
N.D.
 
#23 ·
Having personally seen what a 55 gr BTHP will do after passing through a normal couch pillow, I do not trust it to penetrate sufficiently to stop an intruder. Fragmentation was complete BEFORE entry into the chest cavity. With a straight on thoracic shot had enough penetration to destroy the heart and prove fatal but the shot would have been questionable for any other angle.
The problem is if you find a load that will not penetrate wall board, it is not likely to penetrate a body sufficiently.
That's the problem with compromises. They do not fulfill ALL requirements.
 
#24 ·
I know!

The problem is if you find a load that will not penetrate wall board, it is not likely to penetrate a body sufficiently.
That's the problem with compromises. They do not fulfill ALL requirements.
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robo:

Thanks for posting!

You are so very right Compromises really do suck.
I really do hate compromises . .

. . But compromises must be made!
(its For the good of the cause soldier ) lol

Scr*w the Damn Shotgun!

Because what I would really prefer to use for home defense is a FREE
(no cost to me) full auto 40MM grenade launcher or a full auto 80MM Morter that never has to be reloaded or cleaned and produces no unwanted results whatsoever when I use it IE; friendly fire, recoil, oh and I want it to never run out of ammo either ETC.

while I'm wishing in one hand and watching the other hand get full;
I also want Immunity for any actions I may take during my entire life time.

I know Its a tough decision, but I will fire until the threat is over or until I run out of ammo,
whatever that ammo may be.
I still have not chosen an ammo candidate yet.

I just know what the ammo MUST not do in this scenario and that is why we do research; to see what advances have been made when we aren't looking (those sneaky ammo designers) :D

Thanks
N.D.
 
#25 ·
You have been cordial and all, and others have been to you.

But at some point diplomacy has to be dropped.

You have been given numerous options, and every one you have dismissed. So ya know what? Suck it. The best option that meets all of your requirements save one is the shotgun. Low cost, low recoil (limited recoil rounds), limited barrier penetration, and good effects on target.

Deal with it. Inside the home limited recoil No4 buck will not kick all that much. It will put the BG down, and it will not likely penetrate multiple walls in normal built to code homes.

Good bye. Im done with this thread.
 
#26 ·
in response to Shooter girl:

You have been cordial and all, and others have been to you.

But at some point diplomacy has to be dropped.

You have been given numerous options, and every one you have dismissed. So ya know what? Suck it. The best option that meets all of your requirements save one is the shotgun. Low cost, low recoil (limited recoil rounds), limited barrier penetration, and good effects on target.

Deal with it. Inside the home limited recoil No4 buck will not kick all that much. It will put the BG down, and it will not likely penetrate multiple walls in normal built to code homes.

Good bye. I'm done with this thread.
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Shooter girl:

Thank you for your input.

But I must disagree.

I am not dismissing any load suggestions for "either" "of this threads" "2" chosen calibers 5.56MM & 7.62x39MM.
I'm only waiting to make a choice until all the possible ammo options that fit this threads criteria are exhausted; and I don't really think we've yet come close to exhausting all the commercially produced ammo options to make a choice from either . ;)


I am very sorry if I have caused you or any one else here to become annoyed or frustrated with me or with my interest in discussing this particular subject matter at length, as this was & is not my goal.

I have found every bit of this thread to be a very enjoyable, informative and thought provoking exercise in and of its self and
I really do appreciate all the interesting input from you and everyone else participating in this thread, and I am truly sorry you no longer wish to participate with in this thread.

BTW: I love your sig line. :D

Bye
N.D.
 
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