Fragmented ammo question?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by N.D., Nov 29, 2009.

  1. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    This is the Hypothetical question scenario:
    I was thinking of using either a 5.56MM or a 7.62x39MM carbine for home defense and I am concerned about over pen in home walls.
    I don't wanna reach out & touch the neighbors so I am looking for some good (IE; reliable and reasonably accurate for its intended purpose) fragmenting or prefragmented ammo to solve this concern.
    I am really hoping to get AMMO SUGGESTIONS, not advice to get a (shoulder cant take the recoil anyway) shotgun.
    All AMMO SUGGESTIONS or related info will be greatly appreciated.
    Thank you in advance. :D
     
  2. tiberius10721

    tiberius10721 New Member

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    Ive never heard of any type of 5.56 rifle ammunition that would not go through the wall of the house. You stated your shoulder can not handle the recoil of a shotgun. You can buy a shotgun and ammunition for a shotgun that doesnt have any more recoil than a rifle that shoots 7.62 . My wife shoots my 12 guage shotgun with #8 shells in it and it doesnt hurt her arm at all. You can get recoil pads for shotguns that will help with the recoil tremendously. No weapon is better for home defense than a shotgun. especially a pump shotgun.Its a myth that all shotguns have a lot of recoil.
     

  3. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    Ammunition Drywall Penetration Analysis Test (Adpat) - 230-Grain Forums
    This is an interesting test I googled. While its not entirely scientific, the test surprisingly showed even 380 handgun rounds passing nearly/completely through three walls. Thats 6 layers of drywall! same with 9mm, 45acp and 12ga 00 buck. The least penetration was with .223/5.56 40gr v-max. Penetrated first wall with small fragments only.
    Do some more research, but if you're looking at minimizing penetration with 5.56 Id look at light bullet varmint loadings such as the 40gr v-max. Another possibility would be barnes 40gr varmint grenade. Ive seen some vids on the web of them completely disintegrating passing through a grape.---Gate
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    Varmint grenade link
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYigC49tnh8[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2009
  4. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    5.56mm Frangible jacket (DODIC AA40). It has a copper jacket, powdered tungsten and a nylon binder for a core.

    Then there is the 5.56mm RRLP, but I am not sure what exactly it is made out of.

    Both are made by Black Hills Ammunition, Inc., Rapid City, S.D.

    Though I am not sure if it is available for civilian use.
     
  5. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    ShooterGirl, Black Hills has a 36gr varmint grenade loading, wonder if thats the civilian version of what you listed?
    .
    From barnes website Varmint Grenade® | Barnes Bullets
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    Introduced in 2007, the Varmint Grenade has rapidly become one of the most popular varmint bullets around. Based on a design Barnes developed for military applications, the hollow-cavity, flat-base bullet features a copper-tin composite core surrounded by a guilding-metal jacket. This extremely accurate bullet enjoys consistently high demand.
    The bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities, while its highly frangible core fragments explosively on impact. Produces instant fragmentation, virtually vaporizing ground squirrels and prairie dogs, even at long range. Expending its energy early, the Varmint Grenade seldom exits large predators like bobcats and coyotes, leaving valuable pelts virtually undamaged.
    For 2009, Barnes’ best-selling Varmint Grenade lineup now includes 26-grain bullets for the .204 Ruger, new 30-grain .224” bullets for .22 Hornet firearms, as well as 36-grain .224” bullets, and 50-grain .224” bullets for rifles with 1:10 or faster twists. There’s also a 62-grain .243” Varmint Grenade for 6mm rifles. While these lead-free bullets are environmentally safe, they’re deadly on prairie dogs and other varmints. The unique, instantly frangible core ends worries of ricochets.
    Varmint Grenades are sold in 100- and 250-bullet packs. Factory loads are available from Black Hills Ammunition
     
  6. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    I don't think so.

    I believe that they are 55 and 60 gr respectively.

    Though other companies may have used the same idea for different rounds.
     
  7. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Keep in mind you are in Michigan. For a significant part of the year any potential intruders will be wearing heavy clothing. Using the REALLY light .223 ammo will render the carbine nearly useless against such intruders. If the bullet will fragment in a grape, how will it pass through an insulated leather jacket and still reach the vitals?

    A 50-55 gr HP would be a better choice IMHO. Even the heavier (60gr +) bullets in SP or HP will penetrate the walls MUCH less than a 9mm handgun bullet.
     
  8. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    tiberious:

    This former FFL holder has literally fired hundreds of rounds of 0 buck not to mention all the "other various types of shells" I have fired including some various types O' special purpose military and LE only ammo. I have conducted "my own penetration tests" and have every reason to draw the conclusion that (while; you have brought up the valid point that there are "low recoil loads" available ETC.) "I feel The shot gun is not the right platform for me at this time."
    But I will take it under advisement, and Thank you for taking the time to post.

    Please see 1ST. post above for POSTING PARAMETERS thanks.
     
  9. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    Of note (not really directed at you). There was a few tests done with various shotgun loads, and typically they found that nothing under #4 buck would reliably penetrate to vital organs at a range of more than 3 or 4 yards.
     
  10. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    Gate:
    Great vid loved it; thanks for the link.
    and . . .
    Thanks for the response, its right on target.
    I have been giving these types of ammo some scrutiny and they are currently under consideration for my purpose.
    Although I do wonder if the Barnes "grenade" would really be as (Lethally) effective on human predators as it appears that it will be on yotes' & varmints & if it will frag (disintegrate) when it hits drywall or not.
     
  11. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    Shooter girl:

    Thanks 4 posting.

    That AA40 sounds like its along the same lines as some of the ammo that Gate mentioned in his 1st post "The Barnes Varmint grenade" Black Hills is good stuff judging by their rep. so if their loading it it'll probably perform pretty well.
     
  12. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    RE: Michigan clothes.

    _________________________________________________________________
    *** A 2.
    You very well may be right about some of the available Frangible bullets and a 50-55 GR. HP might just be the right ticket (and I'm very sure a 9 will pen more in WB) but I have to keep examining all the possibilities at least until I am able to find out 1. How a given round behaves in reality when striking both mediums IE; human Flesh/wallboard, then I will know for sure what ammo may actually be a candidate in the running for this election.

    See this is very thought provoking isn't it!?

    Thanks robo.:D
     
  13. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    From what I have seen. The very light varmint grenades tend to only penetrate about six inches. Half of the requirement for an effective round by the FBI.

    Maybe after I get my bonus I will purchase a few different types of ammo and test intermediate barrier penetration.
     
  14. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    Over & Under!

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    Shooter girl:

    I agree!

    As you mentioned shot guns using light weight SHOT (not flechette Rnds) reach a point of under pen in soft tissue at relatively close ranges, but will still over pen into the next room in most cases.
    Now specialy loaded Flechette RNDS will pen/perform very well in flesh w/low recoil, unfortunatly it will (Flechette) still over pen in WB . .

    Now of course I'm sure some really smart person/s will figure out a way to solve this problem.


    Thanks;)
    N.D.
     
  15. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    That depends on building construction.

    Remember the fifth safety rule. Know your weapon its capabilities, and what is beyond.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  16. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    Building construction

    _________________________________________________________________

    How right you are!

    Thanks
    N.D.
     
  17. N.D.

    N.D. New Member

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    overlooked this post

    _________________________________________________________________

    Shooter girl:

    Thanks for the helpful info, sounds just about right for the stated purpose of HD.

    My HD situation doesn't require that my loads offer the FBI required 12 in. of pen.
    I'll be more than happy with 6-8" of pen ammo to be used exclusively in the house.

    Thanks
    N.D. ;)
     
  18. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    I would not carry something that can not penetrate 12 inches of flesh. It looks good when you are shooting at someone squared off to you, but that really doesn't happen much. Anything less than 12 inches and you are not likely to hit multiple vital organs that will drop them quickly. Six inches and you are not likely to do significant damage to the BG unless you are taking a straight up frontal shot.