First gun advice

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by Leavingplatoscomphycave, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. im looking to make my first firearm purchase soon (my 18th birthday is in 2 weeks). I need a SHTF/home-defense/(multi-purpose) firearm and i was thinking maybe a SAIGA (308) (but was a little sad that it only comes with a 8 round mag) or maybe a remington 870 pump-gun would be cool (but i like the accuracy and no need to pump of a rifle) what do you think would be wiser for a first purchace?
     
  2. ^

    i also heard saigas really arent that acurate is this true?
     

  3. saviorslegacy

    saviorslegacy New Member

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    Before you get the rifle you need the training.
    Also, a gun IMO is always a last resort. There is no need to waste a life when there are other alternatives. So if you do get in a bad situation, remember that.

    ps I hate judging people by their age but, I would feel differently if you had more years of experience. I myself am 17 and when I turn 18 I don't plan on getting a home defense gun. I really feel like we don't understand the responsibility of holding the fate of ones life in our hands. Just my opinion.
     
  4. oh naturally (to training) i have experience with both shotguns and rifles, and plan on ether attending frontsite training institute (depending on purchase: and taking there 4 day tactical shotgun class, or a 4 day practical rifle class plus a two day class skill builder) In addition i have older friends who have taken 20-30 courses at front-site so i plan on continuing train with them.
     
  5. Guns iMo

    yes they are a last resort but you obviously have been trained in confrontation, otherwise you would know that the object is to not kill the person...you shoot to stop them and there death is just a consequence of them being stopped ;) and 83% of the time shots are never fired. (that was a bit of a joke so dont go getting mad at me there =P ) anyways im here to learn from much older wiser and more experienced people not to say that i cant learn anything from you its just that you obviously arent "experienced" enough to even answer my initial question, save your smug wisdom for someone who cares.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  6. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    OK, first things first. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. I've met forty-somethings that shouldn't be allowed to use a steak knife, but I was shooting a 12 ga when I was around 7.

    True that anytime someone is getting their first gun they should become familiar with guns, safety and research everything they can...which I can assume is why you are here, so welcome.

    now why do you want a gun? Like you said a multipurpose/SHTF gun. If that is the case, then the 870 is a great choice. Shotguns can be used for a multitude of applications and their only limitation is their range (most of the time they're less than 150 yards with slugs and less than 50 yards with shot). Shotguns contain a ton of power, so if you are gun shy (pardon the pun) then you might want to look into a smaller gauge.

    As far as the Saiga 308. When people refer to the AK being inaccurate they're not really coming from an averages shooters standpoint. In the cases I am familiar with, these people are talking about ranges approaching 300 yards and are also referring to 1.5moa, which as some will say that is 1.5 minute of a dead guy. As far as an average person, the AK is plenty accurate.

    Now for the 308. Thats a meaty round and to use it for home defense it will overpenetrate by miles. IMHO a rifle is not a good home defense gun, strictly because of the overpenetration. If you are dead set on a rifle a cheaper round that is pretty good is the 7.62x39 or the .223 is a great defense round.

    A shotgun with #4 buck is a great HD round.

    But this is my opinion, and you can talk to a thousand people and get different answers.

    Find someone who has a lot of guns and ask to go to the range with them. Get the feel for different guns and learn how to safely operate them. Then make a decision. Don't lock yourself down to two guns, there are thousands of guns out there that will do what you want and might do it better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  7. wow thanks alot

    i really appreciate your reply very informational, oh and the 308 round would be more of a SHTF thing because in my opinion .223 doesnt have enough man stopping power, im surprised the military uses it. thanks a lot i wish i had a more lengthy reply to yours. =)
     
  8. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    A lot of people have that opinion of the 223, but trust me there is a reason the 223 is called the meat ax. It earned that rep in vietnam and has not let too many people down since then. I can't remember what country did the test, but if you search around you'll find it. They tested why the America's 223/5.56mm was dropping people, but the AK's 7.62x39 wasn't. They found the 7.62 was passing straight through the target while the 223 was tumbling. The wound channel was horrifying with the 223/5.56mm but the 7.62 was just a hole. This created the AK-74 which a 5.45mm I believe.

    So don't fall into the trap that the 223 does not have the stopping power. It does!
     
  9. cool thanks

    hahaha meat axe thats cool ill look it up. but i have just one more question for you because you sem to know what you are talking about, i found this 870 knock off HAWK 12 GA. PUMP DEFENSE SHOTGUN
    waddya think? not worth it? i hear mixed reveiws

    oh and i might just be naive here, but isnt 5.56mm different from a 223 or is that 7.62x51mm NATO being different from 308? nvm you can disregard that i get confused by calibers alot because im new to anything not elementary when it comes to guns.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  10. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    I've never heard of that brand. When it comes to guns I stay with name brands, especially when it comes to repair/replacement parts.

    The .223 is the civilian version of the 5.56, just like the .308 is the civi version of the 7.62x54. And the AR is the civi M4/M16/A2, etc
     
  11. is there any difference between military and civilian rounds besides names?

    and name brands are good if you have the cash to fork out that is :/
     
  12. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    Yes. 5.56x45 runs at a higher pressure than .223. The rifle need a 5.56, CIP, or Wylde chamber to use 5.56 reliably. .308 runs at a higher pressure than 7.62x51, so .308 should not be used in a firearm that is 7.62 chambered. Many 7.62 surplus rifles are marked .308. That is incorrect.
    Back to the Saiga. They are reliable rifles w/ decent accuracy.
     
  13. DarinCraft

    DarinCraft New Member

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    +1, although I thought all the military rounds were the higher pressures and the civi rounds weren't. Cool I learned something new about the 308 :cool:
     
  14. amoroque

    amoroque New Member

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    I would say that if you are looking for a first firearm, everybody needs a good shotgun. This shotgun could be used for home defense, trap, sporting clays, and small game hunting. I have a couple remington 870 shotguns and are very happy with them. As DarinCraft said I would stick with a name brand for replacement parts, customer service, etc.
     
  15. shooter24

    shooter24 New Member

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    Dude if your looking for a home defense gun dnt look at rifles. That is the worst choice you could make for home defense. Get a shotgun.
     
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    First off any defensive arsenal should be based upon the 12 ga pump shotgun. Everything else is gravy beyond that.

    .223 is a VERY viable man stopper. 5.56 ammo the military uses is full metal jacketed (per the Hague Accords). Comparing .223 soft points and 5.56 FMJ is like comparing a 6 cylinder F-150 to a Powerstroke F-350. They kind of look the same, but they do not perform the same.