[ACIinventor]

Subcompact, high capacity, 9mm handguns are all the rage right now. Is the consumer driving this demand or is the consumer being manipulated? Could it be that law enforcement has requested the firearms industry to steer consumers toward this category of defensive handgun? Why? These subcompact 9mms with their short barrels that barely produce enough velocity to reach the FBI's protocol may be what law enforcement wants on the streets. The 9mm will not penetrate law enforcement bullet resistant vests, not even those fired from longer barrels in bigger handguns. Convincing American consumers that the subcompact, high capacity, 9mm handgun is the epitome of defensive carry may be a protective tactic. Law enforcement knows that more powerful cartridges such as .45ACP or 10mm generate greater muzzle energy. Neither of those cartridges will penetrate a bullet resistant vest either. But that's not the point. Being hit in your vest by a 9mm with lower ft/lbs energy is far more advantageous than getting hit by the more powerful cartridges. Blunt force trauma is a concern when wearing bullet resistant vests. It can even be deadly despite the bullet's inability to penetrate. By working with the firearms industry to convince consumers to stay away from the more potent cartridges, law enforcement may be deliberately 'down-gunning' Americans. On the surface this isn't a bad idea. As long as you're not having to deal with crooked cops. I choose a .45ACP because my threat assessment includes potential engagements with criminal law enforcement agencies in Tennessee. The Hornady Critical Duty rounds come out of my 1911 at about 950ft/sec with around 464 ft/lbs of energy. If I'm forced to defend myself from a crooked cop, that higher energy transfer into the bullet resistant vest may save my life. At the very least, one or two hits in the vest should enable a follow-on shot as described by G. Gordon Libby. He advocated headshots for armored assailants. The reduced energy transfer into the vest by already marginal 9mm handguns will likely not produce an effect that is life saving.
More to come on the law enforcement cover-up of the Savanna Puckett Murder...

 

[Southernguns]

Thanks for your opinion and thoughts. No, I, for one, don't think there is a conspiracy to "down gun" society. You won't find people here to be "under-gunned" at all. Small 9mm's are there for concealment and they do quite well with headshots. BP vests only cover part of the body and people here have everyday weapons that will penetrate them, not that, that is anyone's goal here. We're not criminals. Under-estimating a FMJ 9mm is not smart. Especially one that is hand-loaded which a lot of people do here. 9MM FMJ's have probably killed more people than anything else ever or maybe AK rounds.

BTW, there is an introduction section that members here prefer to be where the first post goes. We would like to know some things about you so there's the place for it. Welcome from Dixie.

 

[AgedWarrior]

Welcome! And please do as Southernguns suggested and visit the introductions and tell us about yourself.

Regarding your conspiracy theory, I would say it is more market driven due to more folks daily carrying and desiring a quality easily concealed firearm. It is, to me, fairly obvious that Sig generated this wave of smaller guns with the P365, and everyone else is trying to get some of that market playing catch up. It’s competition and it’s good for the marketplace.

 

[OldGnome]

@ACIinventor - @Southernguns and @AgedWarrior offer some sage advice about introducing yourself. You might want to take a look at So yer new here, huh? for some other good information.

I don't believe in most conspiracy theories since so many require vast numbers of people to keep their mouths shut.

I know that I chose my caliber (9 mm) first, then I went looking for a gun (or two or three). I found .45 ACP, .38, and .357 all too much for my hands. I could better handle 9 mm, the gun capacities are higher, there seem to be more guns available, and ammo is both more reasonably priced and available.

That doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me. Is there a marketing component to the success of 9 mm? Of course, there is.

 

[sheriffjohn]

Manufacturers produce what brings in profits fastest. Having money tied up in products unsold is not a good business plan. Regardless of what's the best choice for a given use in anyone's personal opinion, "Cash is King". Obviously, the market for self defense firearms remains good, so that's what we're seeing on dealers' shelves. Likewise ammo - common ammo turns over, more obscure caliber/bullet choices do not.

As for "law enforcement" pushing people to buy sub-par ammo/guns, that's pretty far-fetched. First time I ever heard of that one.

 

[Southernguns]

Manufacturers produce what brings in profits fastest. Having money tied up in products unsold is not a good business plan. Regardless of what's the best choice for a given use in anyone's personal opinion, "Cash is King". Obviously, the market for self defense firearms remains good, so that's what we're seeing on dealers' shelves. Likewise ammo - common ammo turns over, more obscure caliber/bullet choices do not.

As for "law enforcement" pushing people to buy sub-par ammo/guns, that's pretty far-fetched. First time I ever heard of that one.

I have to agree with sherriffjohn. Going on several years now, people have been buying small and large self-defense weapons of all kinds, given what's been going on in America. People that would never have thought of carrying guns are carrying them and getting training and getting ammo.

Nobody has needed to market guns as the television and fake news has done a marvelous job of doing that. Crime stats have had a lot to do with selling guns as well. My wife has a nice new purse with a pocket specially designed for a gun to be carried inside with easy access. Never before has this been a worse time for everyone to be a crime victim or a better time to be shot by a would be crime victim. People are armed like never before and it is continuing. Conspiracy theory? That's a stretch but interesting questioning. People in this forum know what's going on as it affects them for the most part. I know all I need to know and manufacturers are doing what their shareholders expect. Gun makers are "for profit" businesses.

 

[X-Raycer]

I'm glad that I didn't see the "Down Gunned" memo when I bought my M&P in 357SIG 10 years ago.

 

[Mister Dave]

An autopsy shows Puckett was shot eight times: in the head, right arm and right breast, left breast, left forearm and left hand. She was also shot three times in the back.....

I'm really kind of confused on why this story is mixed with "down gunning".

But I'll try. I don't see myself shooting cops or soldiers. If it ever came to that in some bizarre scenario, I have firearms that might work. And I have 9mm and even .380 AUTO too. I'm pretty sure I could take my share.

People "down gun" AFAIK for conceal carry. I don't think they carry for a shoot-out with law enforcement.

And.... I'm a little concerned and confused with why the two subjects have been mixed together.

 

[Clifffalling]

Never heard the term "down gun" ...
The rounds i carry in my high capacity compact 9mm generate 420 ft lbs at the muzzle. 447 ft lbs from a full size weapon. Yes i have chrono'd that.
Not concerned about any "conspiracy" either. Millions of 1st time buyers in the last 2 years. If there was a "conspiracy " by the anti's someone done messed that up! LOL!

Cheers

 

[OldGnome]

Never heard the term "down gun" ...

That's a new one to me, too.

 

[Oldoutlaw]

By working with the firearms industry to convince consumers to stay away from the more potent cartridges, law enforcement may be deliberately 'down-gunning' Americans. On the surface this isn't a bad idea. As long as you're not having to deal with crooked cops. I choose a .45ACP because my threat assessment includes potential engagements with criminal law enforcement agencies in Tennessee.

Let me know where those crooked cops and criminal law enforcement agencies are. Then I can avoid those areas and not have to fight it out with them.

 

[armoredman]

Greetings fellow firearms enthusiast...so, how is the weather in D.C. this time of year?

 

[Txhillbilly]

Never been a 9mm fan. I owned a Beretta 92 back in the 1980's for a short time, the cartridge didn't impress me at all.
The 40 S&W and 45 ACP are my choice in a carry weapon in semi-auto, and 44 Magnum & 45 Colt when it comes to revolver's.
Firearms maker's can push all the 9mm's that they want, I'll never buy another one.

 

[OLD Ron]

If I knew of a crooked cop ....... I would put a call into the AG .
Not looking for a shoot out with any one vest or no vest .
No one has to lead me to buy any gun ....... I have found my way there all on my own for many years !
Finding plots behind everything is easy ...... It's all a commie plot !
Being all worried about tomorrow will make you miss today .

 

[Notrighty]

If the police are such a threat in your are you should move elsewhere. As far as higher capacity compacts go it seems like a natural evolution for concealed carry weapons. I must have been manipulated into buying exactly what I wanted.

 

[Clifffalling]

Greetings fellow firearms enthusiast...so, how is the weather in D.C. this time of year?

Lol! Good call.

 

[JTJ]

Actually there are 9mm rounds that will blow through soft armor. Problem is some bad guys are wearing armor which is why some people are going to AR15's and AK's for home defense. About 25 years ago to heavily armed and armored bank robbers shot it out with police in Hollywood. The cops had to go to a gun store and borrow rifles to put them down.

 

[Southernguns]

Actually there are 9mm rounds that will blow through soft armor. Problem is some bad guys are wearing armor which is why some people are going to AR15's and AK's for home defense. About 25 years ago to heavily armed and armored bank robbers shot it out with police in Hollywood. The cops had to go to a gun store and borrow rifles to put them down.

Just as the residents of Coffeyville, KS had to go to the local hardware store to borrow rifles to eliminate The Dalton Gang as they were robbing two banks at the same time. Nice little museum there about that... The Gang members weren't "down gunned" but they lost anyway.

 

[Oldoutlaw]

I doubt this OP will be back. Course, I may be wrong.

 

[Southernguns]

I doubt this OP will be back. Course, I may be wrong.

I would bet on that one, Ool. You're right.