FBI's Gory PDF

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by Rentacop, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. Rentacop

    Rentacop Active Member

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  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    That's very good information Rentacop, thank you for posting this.

    Everyone needs to take some time and read that report if you carry a weapon for protection or have one around the house.

    Of interest, the police officers involved were shooting a suspect with only a down jacket a T-shirt. Their .40S&W rounds penetrated about an inch into the victim and did not cause any life threatening wounds.

    The SWAT officer fired .223 rounds ( 17 I believe ) and 13 of them WENT THROUGH the assailant without stopping him.

    I found the report kind of double speaking. They said the .40S&W was insufficient to end the threat, but then at the end they said it was sufficent. The .223 rounds, which did not pass the FBI tests, did end the threat, but at the end of the report they claimed the rounds were not sufficient.

    This goes to show that shot placement is much more important than getting multiple rounds on target. A large round is going to help, but this assailant had a shattered arm and a shattered pelvis and continued to shoot at officers.

    Tight groups guys - where you want to place them is the key, not slinging lead in the area of the bad guys....

    JD
     

  3. Shotgun Shooter

    Shotgun Shooter New Member

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    Did anyone else find it ironic that his tattoo said "live by the gun"?

    But, definitely good info. Thanks, Rentacop.

    S.S.
     
  4. layton

    layton New Member

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    I got the same from Front Sight, they do have some good stuff they put out to make you stop and think, and they do have a well laid out marketing plan.What got me is the amount of hits, and when the last decisive round was fired, was he was still firing.ANOTHER THING IS THAT SHOWS WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN THE HEAT OF A CONFLICT, Opps sorry for the caps, keys are too close.Also he still reloaded from loose rounds from a box of rounds. That really goes to prove that every one needs to practice and practice on shot placement.

    Layton
     
  5. Rentacop

    Rentacop Active Member

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    Guys-
    Glad you found the link worthwhile. I think some of the confusion stems from the FBI's disputing the NTOA's statements. The FBI seems to imply that some of the .40 bullets had to penetrate more than an inch based on the fact that they mushroomed.

    The key points here are :
    1) The initial wound or wounds can trigger the body's natural defenses, shutting off pain and making the body insensitive to subsequent wounds.

    2) Unless a wound shuts down the central nervous system, you can't bet on an instant stop.

    3) Shot placement is king.

    4) Even top quality ammo may not live up to your expectations even if it performs as advertised.
     
  6. skullcrusher

    skullcrusher New Member

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    Great thread, thanks Rentacop. :)
     
  7. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    WOW

    One questions from a non packer. WHO the HELL shoots some one in the darn foot?

    They sure did shoot the hell out of that guy.
     
  8. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    I don't think anyone doubted or argued that shot placement is KING. However, making an appropriate shot placement during a gun-fight will prove to be very difficult at best. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE is your only chance to get it right.
     
  9. bwillaub

    bwillaub New Member

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    Also points out.......

    the need to carry spare magazines even if it was from the bad guy's point of view this time.
    I'm not too sure what to take from the ballistic evidence tho. I will continue to carry my Ruger P94 and practice, practice, practice.
     
  10. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    A good reminder of the reality that comes with the use of a firearm.

    Put the argument of stopping power aside, and take a long look at the guy on the morgue table.

    Prepare yourself mentally, because in a self defense situation you had better be ready to make someone look just like that guy on the table, otherwise that guy on the table may be you......

    Be responsible, and enjoy the hobby of firearms, but remember to put thought into the serious side of them as well.
     
  11. utf59

    utf59 New Member

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    Yes. Also that his other tattoo said "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger." And I think the arm tattoo also included "Die By The Gun."

    The impression I got from an earlier page was that the coroner's office initially issued information that was in error. I believe the page with all the details (small print) was that initial report. If so, then all the detailed description of bullet performance is what we're NOT supposed to believe (which is confusing).

    Lots of people. If a bad guy is standing behind a car while shooting, you can lie down behind your own car, get a clear shot at his feet and ankles under both cars, and put him on the ground. My impression in reading this report is that that's what they did and that's when one or more officers flanked him with M-4s. If so, that also might explain all the pass-throughs, since they would have been shooting from very close range.

    It's also common practice in the military to use "grazing fire," where a machine gun barrel stays parallel to the ground, usually a foot or two above ground, and the gunner traverses the barrel back and forth. That keeps rounds from digging into the dirt, increasing their effective range. It also maximizes the chances of hitting the enemy — guys on their feet get hit in the legs and brought down, and guys who are prone get hit in the body/head.
     
  12. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    That's exactly why there are no rules in a gunfight or fight. Use all advantages and tactics. Good observation and information there, utf59. Now could you please go to the New Members Introduction thread and introduce yourself to the rest of us, especially if you are a military member, judging by your jump wings avatar. I, along with everyone else, may find your posts have some valuable information to share here in our forum, if the rest of your posts are anything like this one. Good job! :)

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  13. hawkman1

    hawkman1 New Member

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    The reason the .223 were ineffective was because the energy that they possessed did not do anything other than breaking bones on the assailant. I believe it was like 11 or so of 17 rounds of the .223 went through the person. The heat form the bullet will cauterize the wound at the entry point. It does not act like an arrow broadhead witch cuts the tissue and allows the wound to bleed a whole lot. Rounds that go through and through don't cause the tissue damage a fully opened up round does that has stopped inside of someone.

    The reason why the FBI would consider the .40 as being effective would be because they had stopped in the subject and some have opened. I don't know why they all did not open and penetrate more than they did, but there could have been other contributing factors to the ammunition that we don't know about such as the age of the ammunition and moisture content within the rounds powder that would cause a slow burn. LE officers don't often swap old ammo for new ammo especially since ammo is hard to find right now. Weather conditions can impact the ammo for days.

    I am not writing for or against any of the rounds, I just think that sometimes there are more things to look at than just believing what others say is true. Shot placement is needed at every gun battle. But I also am a firm believer in producing the max amount of damage with the least amount of ammo.
     
  14. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    One more reason why the "10" ring needs to be over the Medulla Oblangata on silhouette targets. You have to disconnect the brain from the body. Shoot them in the mouth and save ammo.
     
  15. Donnyj

    Donnyj New Member

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    Great article. One of the best I have ever read. I can't get over how many times this guy was hit and did not stop him. You hear about this stuff in the news but it does not sink in until you actually see the pictures. What more incentive would a person need to go out and practice, practice, practice? Thanks a bunch for an excellent eye opening article.
     
  16. Kage0113

    Kage0113 New Member

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    Thanks for the info Rentacop. For a future LEO that is good to know since PD's are starting to issue .40 gold dot.
     
  17. Donnyj

    Donnyj New Member

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    Excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused about that article. All this shooting happened at 20 feet. Is it normal for a 40 Cal. bullet not to penetrate to do bodily harm at that close of range? I do understand shot placement, I do a lot of hunting, but I would figure 1 maybe 2 shots to the chest should of ended this conflict. Its not like the officers did not hit this guy. True, one shot to the head would of stopped it quickly, but I would of thought a shot to the chest or belly would of slowed this guy down. I guess what I'm asking is what caliber should be used for defense if the 40 cal. was not enough? Would a 357 mag be enough at that close range? Sorry for the long post, but this article opened up a whole new set of questions for myself.
     
  18. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I believe the problem was the .40 caliber round PLUS the hollow points/expanding rounds PLUS the fact that the bad guy had on several layers of protection in clothing.

    Much like dropping a really flat rock, or a plate, into a flat surface of water, when a hollow point round impacts a solid ( like skin ), it starts to disperse it's energy out, causing a shockwave that "should" result in terminal damage to the delicate vitals within the human body. Anyone who has ever done a bellyflop into a flat lake knows what I am talking about.

    The problem, as seen in the second example where the driver's seat was struck several times, is that the .40 cal rounds dispersed their energy too early.

    Why the one lone round that struck the assailant in the throat was NOT a critical wound is beyond me. That should have been a kill shot, but according to the coroner, it was not. :eek:

    I carried a .40 S&W for years and never doubted it's performance based on what I had seen. Based on this report, I have my doubts.

    JD