FBI, EPA & Local Police raids USA Brass in Bozeman

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Bigcountry02, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. Bigcountry02

    Bigcountry02 Coffee! If your not shaking, you need another cup Supporter

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    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  2. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    They allegedly failed to isue protective gear to workers sorting and cleaning fired brass. Many tested with high lead levels. Shame on USA brass. At least a mask and some training on washing their hands prior to eating/smoknig. I see crews around here doing lead abatement with no protective gear. Just stupid.
     

  3. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    How does that call for a raid from numerous agencies though? A fine, or threat of being closed down would have probably sufficed.
     
  4. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Show of Force intimidates others, just like this thread.
     
  5. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    i will cry no tears for USA brass. The owners of USA Brass cared less about the safety of their workers. Lead poisioning is a serious thing; i've had it-twice.

    This is not the first time USA Brass has been in trouble with the feds over lead exposure of their workers. The company owners learned nothing after it's first run-in with federal regulatory agencies. :mad:

    From the link:

     
  6. mseric

    mseric New Member

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    When did they have exposure issues in the past? If you are referring to the Sept 2013 Issue, I believe that is part of this same investigating and raid.
     
  7. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe, maybe not. OSHA cited USA Brass for violations of workplace law. Just found evidence that the company was recently inspected by OSHA and given a pass. EPA is concerned with environmental law. For example if a company washed fired cartridge cartridge cases and flushed the wash water down the drain, that could be a violation of environmental law.

    https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=24912
     
  8. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    First off, the EPA has a "criminal section", but they are investigators, not cops. When there are criminal violations, they have to call other agencies to help with the raid (or risk a bunch of chemists getting into a Miami shootout scenario). You call the people trained for the job at hand. Feds routinely call local LE so there are marked patrol cars and identifiable uniforms onscene.

    Get over your selves
     
  9. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    That was a good explanation.

    That was unnecessary. The explanation was enough to convince me, and probably others.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  10. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    That sounds reasonable but before the judgement is passed, its important to note the the Department of Education has a SWAT team. So to think that EPA doesn't have all the needed tools isn't a reach.
     
  11. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    But you are OK with the Dept. Of (special) Education even HAVING a SWAT team? I for one am NOT!

    As far as the rest; Are we really comfortable with employers deliberately exposing their employees to toxic materials with out consequence? Administrative (civil) fines through OSHA and the like just do not seem like enough. I do not like the thought of "nanny state" regulation, but it was not long ago businesses (the owners and managers) cost thousands of people their lives due to blatently unsafe working conditions in the name of the almighty profit.

    Putting some in prison for such deliberate indifference will get other's attention. 100 years ago conditions for workers were so unsafe, many laborers were killed on the job. This necessitated the formation of OSHA. The people responsible have become so insulated, they have no consequences. The company pays a fine (is the fine ever really collected or do they simply file bankruptcy?) and they move on
     
  12. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    You are absolutely right, Education should NOT have any kind of law enforcement or SWAT on their payroll. They should go to the FBI, or any number of law enforcement agencies in the government to do that kind of task. No different than the FBI shouldn't be creating curriculum for students in high school.

    As for how to handle a bad employer, I'm not against shutting a place down but does it need to done in a safe manner, is a raid needed? Maybe, I have no idea how passive or violent this "raid" was. Clearly if they had prior fines they should be brought in line but I have seen OSHA fines that are incredibly vague and uninformative where the company in violation really doesn't know what they need to change. An example is a company gets fined and the fine is for something like "failure to properly identify fire exits" but never goes into detail about specifics so the company has to first read up on ALL applicable laws and then make a determination as to how they violated the law and then correct that, when the inspector could have simply said "you had an emergency exit sign that was not illuminated" and that sign was literally above the main entrance/exit. Yes the company should have seen it but at the same time, the regulatory agency should be better about pointing out issues than a vague statement that could end up causing confusion and delays in resolving the issue at hand.

    If the employer continued to expose employees to lead after they had been fined then F them and lock them up. However some EPA rules are just insanely strict, give it a few years and all lead bullets will be outlawed for safety issues. Will you support a raid at that point to take down a facility producing lead bullets that is following all other safety guidelines but if the EPA rules lead bullets unsafe is that enough for you to concur?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  13. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I agree that the EPA has over reached on several issues of late. The threat of banning lead bullets because of safety concerns is about a bogus as it gets. While lead is hazardous, so is water. More people die from the inhalation of water than from lead poisoning.

    I have worked with lead (shooting, loading, casting) for over 30 years. My lead levels are actually down. I use common sense safety practices and keep my system clean with soluable fiber.

    If a bunch of workers at USA brass tested with high lead levels, the company (the management) is doing a piss poor job of training and equiping their employees.
     
  14. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For many years i managed UXO and environmental remediation sites in the US and overseas. i complied with the rules and regulations of numerous federal, state and local agencies: As many as 11 different agencies on one site. Some of my sites had explosive ordnance, lead, hantavirus, asbestos, poison plants, Lyme disease, and toxic chemical hazards.

    We had a Dr. of Industrial Hygiene on retainer. That CIH was then the senior professor of environmental science at a large US university.

    i had trouble only once; with the US Army Corps of Engineers. My air monitors found friable asbestos on a site. This was after USACE declared the site was free of friable sbestos: Turns out no one at USACE bothered to read the addendum of the final report of the previous contractor, who found friable asbestos. The USACE connived to shoot the messenger-me. Watched the good Dr. neuter my tormentors from USACE by simply asking where they attained their CIH certification. None of them had a certification. Then the good Dr. said "enroll in my CIH course and we'll get you into a certification program". He also brought along the chief asbestos compliance officer for the state.

    Folks, complying with EPA and OSHA is not rocket science. The information on federal compliance is out there for the asking, free in many cases. Many of these horror stories involve the willful violation of the law. OSHA did not fine USA Brass based on a whim. The Gallatin County Health dep't. reported the large number of lead poisoning cases to OSHA. You can bet that the county health folks contacted USA Brass after the first case/s were found and then ordered every worker tested for lead.

    http://www.kxlf.com/news/high-lead-...elps-osha-build-case-against-bozeman-company/

    If you think US work safety and environmental law is awful, run a jobsite in Germany or Italy where the enforcers of those agencies are pro-active. They fine you for violations right on the spot, no court, no haggling, no nothing.
     
  15. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A federal law forbids the EPA regulation of lead bullets.

    http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2010/epa-rejects-lead-ammo-ban.aspx
     
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    That is very nice to know. BUT, all it takes is a new law, passed by a Democrap controlled Congress to make a new law.
     
  17. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yep, that is true.
     
  18. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To start with there was NO violation of the LAW!!! The EPA and most other agencies only enforce 'regulations' which THEY MAKE!!! Most of these regulations are totally ridicules and are only put in place to insure job security and to justify their budgets, but most people give them the benefit of the doubt and they have TOTALY abused their authority and they all should be cut back about 80% or abolished all together!:mad:
     
  19. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I have to agree that OSHA can be impossible to deal with. I have seen OSHA inspect construction sites. The inspectors walk right past unsafe scaffolding and a concrete saw that is choking 50 men to enforce hardhat violations.
     
  20. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    Truth is that OSHA cannot make us any safer. Truth is that we get so desensitized to unsafe situations because of safety requirements that it makes us less safe!!!

    Think about it now. Do you wear ear protection and shooting glasses at the range because its required or do you do it because it is smart?

    Do you wait for the light at the crosswalk without looking, or do you cross against the light and look both ways in the middle of the block?

    Me? I am just as likely to cross in the middle of the block and look both ways as I step into the street as I am to wait at the corner for the light.... but I still look both ways.

    Safety Third!!!