False hopes?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by Tenderribbs, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Tenderribbs

    Tenderribbs New Member

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    I've just started reloading 223 the past few weeks ad it's been great therapy , but as far as shooting 1 MOA it's yet to be seen. I have only been shooting my S&W ,haven't started on my DPMS , delton , or colt yet , the best group as of yet is 2 MoA . I know these are not match barrells and they are 16 in but I'm reading folks shooting sub MOA at 200 ,even 300 yds. Now I know I can shoot sub MOA , because I can with my deer rifles . Am I having false hopes with these Ar rifles? I've tried varget with 55 FMJ /BT and 60g Nosler BT/ boat tail with H335. At 25 yds I can make holes touch , but at 100 they spread out to 2 in. Thanks for any advice
     
  2. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Man, really I'd be tickled pink to be getting 2" groups with a 16" barrel.

    You may just need more practice if you insist on going sub MOA. You could look at a match trigger.
     

  3. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your Colt is certainly capable of MOA. Keep trying.

    My LE6940 shoots 1.25 MOA with M193 ball ammo.

    Never tried match grade, since 1.25 MOA is all I'll ever need from a SHTF rifle
     
  4. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hornady 55 grain fmj bt with Varget or H335 have given me 1 moa in my DPMS with a Burris 3-9x40 at 9x. I switched to a 1-4x24 and I cant hold quite as tight with it but good enough. I know it is me not the loads.
     
  5. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    You should be able to shoot 1moa or better with the Nosler B/T bullets. I haven't seen many guns that won't shoot them or a 60gr Vmax bullet well.
    How much powder are you loading in them?
    If your running the factory trigger,that is probably the main reason for big groups. Most factory triggers are very heavy,gritty,and have a lot of creep/travel. Get a good trigger in your guns,and your groups will shrink dramatically.

    I run the RRA 2 stage NM trigger in all of my AR15's,and just had Bill Springfield do a 3lb trigger job on my DPMS LR-260.He did a fantastic job on it,and he's pretty cheap and fast.
     
  6. tri70

    tri70 New Member

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    Try switching powders like H335 or Reloader 7 works well with Nosler 55 gr ballistic tips.
     
  7. Tenderribbs

    Tenderribbs New Member

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    Thanks I'm looking at a timney trigger at the moment. I've tried H335 24.5 g with the 55 FMJ/bt. I started at 22 and at 24.5 the Holes were touching at 25uds but Opend up to 2 moa at 100. I also tried the Nosler Balistic tip/BT with 25 g of varget , same result buletts touching at 25yds but Opend back up at a 100 to 2MOA . Can anyone explain to me why the discrepancy between the 25 yd and the 100 yd. trigger maybe? I'm going to try some 69 nosler today , I think my 1 to 8 riffling will like it. Thanks for your input
     
  8. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    You may find a different powder works for you better. I use W748 or BLC-2 with very good results.

    Of course they "open up" at 100. Remember, the bullets/bullet holes were "touching" when they left the muzzle. The group will open up as range increases. At 1000 yards, the group will be signficant. The bullet flights will look like a cone. How large a cone depends on the load, the gun and the shooter. 2'' at 100 is 2 moa (give or take a hair). 2 moa from a carbine is pretty darn good. Some of these folks who claim "sub moa" groups from 16" barrels are exagerating a bit.
     
  9. Tenderribbs

    Tenderribbs New Member

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    Ok. That makes sense the cone example helps me visualize the concept . Yea I see claims of 1 1/2 groups at 300 with carbines , heck I can't even get that with my sako 243 and she's a shooter. I will try the powder you suggested and see if I can tighten it up a little . My buddy just gave me a few 77g BT/ HP noslers to try , I bet my 1 to 8 will like them . Well see , thanks for the feedback .
     
  10. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Absolutely. Gun rag writers cause an awful lot of totally unrealistic expectations.:(
     
  11. steve4102

    steve4102 New Member

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    Bullet selection is key to good accuracy. Select a Good Match bullet and do a load work up with different powders. Work your way up looking for that magic powder/bullet /charge combo.

    Here is a little work-up I did a few months ago with a new to me Midsouth 55gr Varmint Nightmare. Stock Colt AR-15, 100 yards, 10 rounds each target.
    Notice the accuracy node from 25.5gr to 26gr.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Varget likes to be compressed. You might need to up the load. I am running 25.8 grains in mil spec cases with 55 grain hornady fmjbt seated to the canalure with no signs of excessive pressure. Max is 27.5 grains in commercial cases which are thinner according to the Lee book. Do not use my loads. Work up your own. I know accuracy improved with the heavier loads which I ran in .2 grain increments starting at 25 grains.
     
  13. Tenderribbs

    Tenderribbs New Member

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    Wow I have read both sides of to crimp or not but you convinced me . That's a fine grouping you got there Steve 4102 . What rifle are you shooting those with? I haven't been crimping but I will be now!
     
  14. steve4102

    steve4102 New Member

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    Stock Colt 16" HBAR Carbine.

    Crimp is with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Medium Light Crimp.
     
  15. pulplv

    pulplv New Member

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    You need to mind your barrel twist also. 55 grain bullets are fine for 1:9 twist but if you have 1:7 twist, your heavier bullets will be much more accurate. Try some 77 or even 90 grainers for 1:7 which I believe is what the Colt LE has.
     
  16. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Even if these gun rag writers are shooting these great groups they have the gun locked in a vise. It's not like they are holding the gun and shooting it.
     
  17. steve4102

    steve4102 New Member

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    As with most handloaders, load development requires and good solid bench and a good solid rest. It may not be "Locked" in the rest but cradled securely for sure. It's the only way to test the loads and firearm.
     
  18. Tenderribbs

    Tenderribbs New Member

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    My colt is an older Sp 223 marked on barrel I'm pretty sure it's a 1 to 12 it's like a 1974ish with a slick side . I don't believe it would handle the long stuff. Now I'm working a load with good promise with my 1 to 8 S&W with 77 noslerhp/bt with 24.3 of varget. I'm getting 1.20 MoA at the moment, but hope to improve that.