Explain JMB's "Insanity"

Discussion in '1911 Forum' started by SHAMUSPI, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    Jump on this bandwagon. Can anyone, with reason, EXPLAIN Browning's insanity when he designed his Hi-Power?:mad:

    An external extractor? Had he been given a S&W kool-aid? Had he realized that his earlier 1911 was wrong or inadequate? Was potical incorrectness begining even in his time?:(

    Was it old age? No grip safety - WHY?

    Or did this genius develop an even more advanced pistol design (that S&W follows)? Yes, he had to work around his own patients on his 1911, but that does that mean he was misguided, or worse, bought out?

    Perhaps, I hope, Master Cane, can enlighten us as to this hipocisy (sic). Given your underline of how "great" your Hi-Power" is by gorknoids, have you become a Dr Jeckel and Mr Hide? I'm kidding..................I think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010

  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Wow!

    I don't envy your position here in a few hours when the rest of the guys read this thread... LOL

    Okay, here are what we like to call "FACTS" about the Hi Power design and how it came to be.

    Browning accepted a contract from the French government to produce a new pistol to their standards. Not the least of which had restrictions on caliber size and efficiency, range, capacity and overall size & weight of the weapon.

    Browning produced two designs, both of which he submitted patents for in 1923.

    Browning died with no pistol patents in place, or production models underway, on this pistol in 1926.

    In 1927 patents were granted and FN gave the designs to a Belgian by the name of Dieudonné Saive.

    Saive made modifications to the initial design, including a staggered box magazine and then waited for the Colt patents to expire in 1928, before finishing "his" version of the hi Power and submitting it for final testing.

    Essentially, JMB did only the very base design on the Hi Power, and he did so with the restrictions of the Colt owned patents were in place.

    Bottom line, we don't know WHAT JMB would design given today's technology - but I bet you it would probably last another 100 years based on his track record thus far. :cool:

    JD
     
  3. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    JMB did say that that his "new" pistol incorporated changes that he wished he had thought of when designing the 1911.

    Too bad we could not have had his genius around for another few decades.
     
  4. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    Can you quote what his thoughts were?

    Ahh, Dillinger: While I have read SOME of the history, I have not read what JMB is supposedly to have said.

    Even given that his original 1911 design may, or may not, have been "perfect", could even he have had second thoughts that his 1911 wasn't?:eek:

    If so, how can we, as "shootists," say that the 1911 was the end to end all?:confused:

    Jpyle: What???? Nice, but I don't follow as to my OP (?).
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  5. lonyaeger

    lonyaeger New Member

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    He's saying...."Pass the popcorn, this should be good."
     
  6. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    I'll look around to see if I can find it. The one part I remember had to do with the sear design.
     
  7. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    Ironic. I just ate a bag of microwave popcorn. It expired June 2010. Think it will kill me?
     
  8. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    Oh hell! If three rounds from an AK-47 in Viet Nam, and 28 years of marriage couldn't put me down, what fear do I have from you guys?

    Oh crap, never mind, I'm sorry, please don't hurt me.

    MOMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    First off, I don't consider you a "shootist", because you started this thread. :D

    Now if you, the thread-starter-wannabe-shootist, wants to compare the 1911 to ANY 9mm on the planet; let alone one requested for design by the god damn French, I fear you are going to have a very, very frustrating existence.

    That is all.

    Good day Sir!

    JD








































    I SAID: GOOD DAY SIR!! :p
     
  10. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  11. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    Are you really here for a discussion, to get answers or debate the design of the BHP or are you just here to break balls and start a fight?

    I think the latter...you post a series of open ended questions then mock the responses that are given, make fun of members that haven't even posted a response and pretty much act like a tool.

    If you want a debate, stick around someone will accomodate you...if you want to be a jackass, well that's your choice too.

    Have fun...
     
  12. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    You're losing favor with me, not due to your spunk but because of your ignorance.

    Unlike you, my fondness for everything John Moses Browning is based on respect, knowledge and experience.

    I appreciate JD’s help in laying out the history but I have a little schooling to do.

    First, the BHP it is one of the most-used military service pistols of all time. In fact, during World War II the Hi-Power (P-35) saw service not only with a number of the allied forces but was also used by the German military.

    The fact that the Hi-Power remains in production today without major changes speaks volumes on the soundness of its basic design.

    The original design released in 1935, hence the P-35, drew heavily from the Colt Model 1911. In November of 1926, JM Browning passed to final slide stop. In 1928 the Colt patents expired allowing Dieudonné Saive to integrate (copy) many of the Colt's previously patented features into the Grand Rendement design, the Saive-Browning Model of 1928.

    By 1934, the Hi-Power design was complete and ready to be produced. It was first adopted by Belgium for military service in 1935 as the Browning P-35.

    From 1935 through 1961 the Browning Hi Power was equipped with an internal extractor.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In 1962, the design was modified to replace the internal extractor with an external extractor. (It is rumored that the design responsible engineer was fired and found subsequent employment with S&W, a company looking to foolishly improve on the 1911 pistol.)

    Here's a little of the John Moses Browning "Insanity";

    Several of Browning's designs are still in production today. Some of his most notable designs include:

    Firearms
    • U.S. M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun
    • FN Browning M1899/M1900
    • Colt Model 1900
    • Colt Model 1902
    • Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammer (.38 ACP)
    • Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless (.32 ACP)
    • Colt Model 1905
    • Remington Model 8 (1906), a long recoil semi-automatic rifle
    • Colt Model 1908 Vest Pocket (.25 ACP)
    • Colt Model 1908 Pocket Hammerless (.380 ACP)
    • FN Model 1910
    • U.S. M1911 pistol (.45 ACP)
    • Colt Woodsman pistol
    • Winchester Model 1885 falling-block single shot rifle
    • Winchester Model 1886 lever-action repeating rifle
    • Winchester Model 1887 lever-action repeating shotgun
    • Winchester Model 1890 slide-action repeating rifle (.22)
    • Winchester Model 1892 lever-action repeating rifle
    • Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeating rifle
    • Winchester Model 1895 lever-action repeating rifle
    • Winchester Model 1897 pump-action repeating shotgun
    • Browning Auto-5 long recoil semi-automatic shotgun
    • U.S. M1917 water-cooled machine gun
    • U.S. M1919 air-cooled machine gun
    • U.S. M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)
    • U.S. M2 .50-caliber heavy machine gun of 1921
    • Remington Model 8 semi-auto rifle
    • Remington Model 24 semi-auto rifle (.22) Also produced by Browning Firearms (as the SA-22) and several others
    • Browning Hi-Power (Grand Puissance or GP), the standard sidearm of many military and police forces
    • The Browning Superposed over/under shotgun was designed by John Browning in 1922 and entered production in 1931

    Cartridges

    In addition, the cartridges he developed are still some of the most popular in the world. They include:
    • .25 ACP
    • .32 ACP
    • .38 ACP
    • 9mm Browning Long
    • .380 ACP
    • .45 ACP
    • .50 BMG
     
  13. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    Wow! Are you looking for a fight, or what?

    For those of you who do not comprehend, I am ASKING a question. Why do you feel it is necessary to attack the messenger?

    Jpyle, if it breaks your balls to have a open discussion, then may I suggest a ladies book reading club for you? Why are you (few) so defensive and offensive? Are you so devoid of reason and facts that all you can do is attack? What childist behaviour do you follow?

    OH! I HAVE NO ANSWER, SO I'll ATTACK THE GUY WHO ASK THE QUESTION!

    Jplye: Am I looking for a fight? No, Boy, I never looked for a fight. It is for you comic book readers that do so. However, I believe that unlike you, I have never backed down from a fight, be it fists or otherwise. I suspect, that boys like you hide behind internet forums to beat your fake chest, and belittle others. You are obviously a coward, who has never faced death.

    Answer us, BOY!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  14. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    Hmm..., I got the "tongue in cheek" nature of the OP. And I'm not all that bright.

    JMB put design features into the 1911, that were of a specific nature. The grip safety was added for cavalry use. If the pistol was dropped (on its lanyard) it would go to "safe" on its own. Cavalry use was not as important after WW1.

    Due to the fact that SHAMUSPI has used a gun in combat, I think he has earned the right to not only ask questions on our forum, but defend himself against personal insults. JD my have been "tongue in cheeking" as well, but his comments were harsh (Sorry, JD:).

    I have criticized the 1911 on this forum, and there may not be a bigger 1911 fanboy than me.
     
  15. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    First let me say thank you for your service. [​IMG]

    Second, you have quite an extensive history for a twelve year old......or you really need to get help for your drinking problem.
     
  16. SHAMUSPI

    SHAMUSPI New Member

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    A twelve year old? Master Cane, I did not want to start a fight. I wanted, with what little sense of humor that I possess, just to ask for a debate. I guess I missunderstood the members here. I did not want to fall into a degrading name calling, that was not my initial posting, it was a "moderator". I ask those in power, to remove me from this so called forum, for it is nothing but that. Open discussion is not allowed here, be it just questioning, or disagreeing. Canebrake, I had hoped more from you.

    My you all enjoy this Chinese web site.
     
  17. Shihan

    Shihan Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Wow, Did somebody go off their meds? That was crazy. I know he is gone, I just had to comment. WTF
     
  18. freefall

    freefall New Member

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    One mans humor is another mans deadly insult.