Evidence Based Training EBT

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Kilibreaux, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    The 3sec 3 yrds 3 shot mantra alot of trainers use is a badly misunderstood one.
    It started with FBI stats. However the distance data the FBI gathers is situations in which the officer lost and was killed.
    If your training/practicing to that criteria you are training to lose.

    As far as COM, for myself that is center of what part of my attackers body is available to target.
    Could be chest/abdomen, side, head, a leg or foot.
    Lead put into your attacker is better than no lead.
    2 shots and access can easily get you killed against an armed attacker. Shoot until your attacker is down or clearly not a threat.
     
  2. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My current favorite carry is my G26 with finger extension. At close range, 5' I can draw and start firing before the pistol is up to eye level as I am backing up. Even the point and shoot are on center mass at that range as are the rest of the 10 rounds. I wont look for head shots until I get some distance. That pistol just comes up on target. I dont have to look for sights they are just there. When you find a pistol like that you run with it. My Shield is nice to carry but I am faster and more accurate with the G26. Now fast is relevant and at my age if I come up against some geriatric bad guys I should do OK.
     
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  3. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    i think that being able to adjust to a situation as it changes is necessary. never stay stagnant in practice, and be willing to change your practice to reflect that every situation is going to be different, with it's own variables.

    i also think that no matter how much we practice or train, that a situation could always arise that we are unfamiliar with, and we need to use the most important part of our equipment available to us, and that is our ability to think and adapt as needed.
     
  4. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I look at a possible encounter as being up close and personal. Practicing at 7 yards is fine for targets but what if you are within touching distance? I practice at those ranges. Winter is coming on and I started practicing with the G26. I have been practicing with the revolver. One drill is to push on the target draw and fire with the revolver almost touching. Muzzle blast does some damage. Usually do some that at the end so I dont screw up the target too early. If it was a real encounter I would jam the revolver into the bad guy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  5. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    IIRC reading an article correctly a few years ago, most attacks where a gun is used for self defense, the distance was usually less than ten feet. in many cases, the sights were never even used because of the circumstances of the attacks.

    i believe that practicing at very close range, of using an instinct type of shooting drills, of not using the sights would be a good way to prepare for such type of attacks. pretty much pulling and shooting without using the sights or bringing the pistol up to eye level.
     
  6. dango

    dango Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Back in basic training , we were given BB rifles and did quick fire drills from the hip . Point and shoot . Anybody else remember any training like this ?
     
  7. Tactical_Precision

    Tactical_Precision New Member

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    This is known as point shooting. With practice, you can effectively engage from up to 15 yards away. It is best to start at the 3 yard line and work your way back. The method is to basically stare at your target point (where you want to hit), and with a three point draw you can begin to fire at the hip as you raise the weapon to your chest and push out. It definitely increases the speed of reaction if something like that were to occur to you. I would say just have some situational awareness, if there are civilians behind them and you are ten yards away maybe you should not point shoot lol. Keep in mind though that for anyone who is still a beginner this might not work so well for you until you get those basic shooting fundamentals down. Otherwise you will either miss or be all over the place which is not what you want in an actual situation.
     
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  8. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    15 yards with a handgun is a bit far for point shooting, though there are about 4 "instructors" that hang their hat on it.

    It's no mystery to learn though some who cash in on it insist it is.
    With a handgun it's basically using your ability to point your finger at something. It will be aimed naturally.
    Then with a handgun again point to get your "reference point" usually the muzzle will look to be about an inch under the point you want to hit.
    Little trial and error it's not hard to pick up and most effectively done one handed.
    If you have time and room to "push out" without risking your gun being grabbed, your honestly too far away to use point shooting reliably.
    I can make com hits all day at 5 yard from waist level Which is not hard to do with a bit of practice. It's only 15 feet.
     
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  9. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    for most of my pistol practice, 15 yards would be considered a long shot! most of mine is done at about 7-10 yards max.
     
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  10. Balota

    Balota ... but I used to play keyboards.

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    Most of my practice comes at IDPA matches. So it's anything from a few yards to 35!!!

    But when I do practice, it's often with a Dot Torture target. 10 - 2 inch diameter circles on an 8-1/2 x 11 page. I'm still at 3 yards for that and I rarely shoot better than 38 out of 50. I need to practice more.
     
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  11. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    i'm thinking of even going in closer with my practice shooting. practicing from about 3 to 6 feet in distance, shooting from pretty much the hip as i draw the pistol from the holster. using a homemade man-sized target with only the COM defined at the main target portion to shoot at.

    doing a simulated drill of using my weak hand and arm to represent pushing off the attacker, while taking a step back and then firing two to three shots at the target. sort of like being jumped at very close range, having to defend with the weak arm and hand, while drawing and firing without being able to use the sights due to space and time constraints of the attack.
     
  12. Balota

    Balota ... but I used to play keyboards.

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    Be damn careful with that kind of practice. Extending your left hand forward of your pistol has the potential to make a mess of that hand.

    Consider extending the hand during the draw, but pull it back to chest before firing. At least until you develop enough confidence in the action. Also, mark the natural elevation of where your hand goes when fending off the attacker. Then compare your point of impact to your hand elevation.
     
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  13. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    pretty much as i was thinking! push off, and then retract the hand before firing was what i was thinking of.

    but very good point, and really wouldn't want to shoot myself in the hand. personally, i think before i try using live ammo, i will try it out, without using ammo to get familiar with doing it this way. once i get use to the procedure, knowing i can do it safely, then i will try using live ammo for practice.
     
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  14. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Active Member

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    Not directing this at anyone particular, only quoted Dallas because he described the scenario of 3 to 6 feet.

    3 to six feet from a sudden attack by even an unarmed attacker is the distance officers often die at.
    Reason? The attacker is too close, 1 step to 2 steps to do much but try to not be disarmed.
    It's extremely unlikely one will be able to access a concealed weapon while an attacker is in contact with you trying to disable you, and be successful without engaging the attacker physically to at least get free and gain some distance.

    But if one desires to train to get a gun in play for a frontal unarmed attack , one needs to start by realizing one may have to be trying to draw with their weak hand, and shoot with it. Strong side may very well be busy.
    If one doesn't carry a weak side BUG, one would need to work out how to draw from strong side with their weak hand.
    And then make hits with one's weak hand.

    Alot of paid instructors work their students at ranges the student can't miss, like 10 feet and less and teach them tacticool stuff against a stationary target that would be useless against a moving determined attacker.
    Student goes home happy , trainer gets couple hundred or more a day so he's happy.
    But it does tend to have an affect on what folks think an actual violent criminal attack will be like and how to defend against it.
     
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  15. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    my thoughts were in situation of like in parking lot between a couple of cars and being attacked by surprise by a robber or thug.

    and yes, i agree gaining distance between your attacker and yourself would be the optimum thing to do if possible. and if the attacker is upon you, then getting him off of you is the first priority, so that it's possible to put some measure of distance between the two of you to be able to bring your pistol into action.

    some very good points Mr. Ghost. taken into consideration.
     
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  16. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A laser is a very effective tool for learning point shooting and trigger control. You can do a lot of dry firing with the laser. It helped a lot with double action trigger pull. I now get pretty much zero bounce on the revolvers. Fit is critical for point shooting. The pistol needs to point naturally and not need adjustment to get on the sights. My G26 does that for me. You need to find a pistol that will do that for you.
     
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  17. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    excellent suggestion. would save a lot ammo in using the laser and dry firing before trying out live ammo as well.
     
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