Don't sell firearms illegally

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by danf_fl, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    I was told today by someone that a co-worker of hers had purchased some firearms from a well known chain store, then turned around and sold the same firearms for a profit.

    That could be considered "dealing", and if indeed "dealing" (and not in possession of an FFL) it could result in some R&R time.

    Heads up to our members who wish to turn a profit on this firearm & ammo shortage.
     
  2. FullautoUSA

    FullautoUSA Welcoming Committee/ Resident Pellet Gunner Lifetime Supporter

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    Couldn't they say it was a civilian transfer?
     

  3. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    If they were different firearms, possibly, but 3 of the same manufacturer and model purchased originally at the same time?
     
  4. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    i agree. i am sure there are those who saw the trend starting to take place and bought with the intentions of selling at a profit. legally i am not sure where this stands, but it would appear to be dealing and without an FFL that would be illegal.

    FAUSA, it's a private sale or FTF sale not civilian transfer. only an FFL can do a transfer.
     
  5. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    The point is not to sell illegally.

    All we, as gun owners and FFL holders, need is for our members to be caught doing something illegal.
    The fire is big enough without our adding fuel.
     
  6. GrtWhytHype

    GrtWhytHype New Member

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    Are there regulations that limit how many guns you can sell before being labeled a dealer? I'm not aware of any. I could see them saying gunbroker sales are classified as interstate sales which would classify you as a dealer. I guess :-/ but then again you transfer to an ffl for gunbroker sales. My head hurts thinking about it now.
     
  7. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    C3 is pretty knowledgeable on this subject. it might even be up to the ATF agents discretion as to whether you are engaging in the business of selling firearms for profit or as business venture without the proper FFL.

    on GunBroker, if they are going through an FFL on the recieving end, the Transferee, then that might be different.

    hopefully C3 or some of the other members that hol an FFL can shed more light on this. it makes my head hurt too!
     
  8. tshoot91

    tshoot91 New Member

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    I read this as Government regulations standing in the way of capitalism and the free market. ;)
     
  9. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Could an agent consider it a "straw purchase"?

    18 U.S.C.921(a)(11):
    (11) The term “dealer” means
    (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
    (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
    (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
     
  10. Genec

    Genec New Member

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    IMO, as in all things legal, intent is key. I have sold and bought guns privately from my house, at gun shows and in parking lots, etc, but the intent was so purchase or sell a single gun. The intent of making a profit over and over, on more than one gun is, by definition, dealing.

    Btw, I require a valid( Florida) driver's license and a CCW for all my handgun sales.
     
  11. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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  12. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    I often buy guns as an investment. They are in my collection. They are for my personal use. But I would sell some if I needed to. I have never bought a gun with the intention to sell it. I believe that is the difference.
     
  13. FullautoUSA

    FullautoUSA Welcoming Committee/ Resident Pellet Gunner Lifetime Supporter

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    Is an FFL required for the sale of NFA?
     
  14. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm putting my money on intent. If you are buying with intent to resell to make money = dealer. Same as buying for someone else = straw purchaser.
     
  15. robertusa123

    robertusa123 New Member

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    nouthing ileage about that in fl as long as the buyer was legel
     
  16. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 New Member

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    Exactly, it's all about intent, and it's a federal law, so it trumps state.

    If you buy a gun SPECIFICALLY with the intent to resell at a profit, that is ILLEGAL.

    now, prove intent in a court of law.

    if you buy one gun, then realize that you can't really afford it because it maxed out your credit card, and you resell it a week later to pay off your credit card so you can put groceries on the table....that's not really illegal.

    but if you buy 3 or 4 of the same exact gun, drive across town to the local gunshow, and sell them the same day...that's probably illegal, and it would be awfully hard to introduce reasonable doubt when you're standing before the judge/jury.

    The question is, do you feel like risking jail time to make a few bucks?
     
  17. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Welcome to the wonderful world of "That all depends..."

    It is unlawful to "Engage in the business" of selling guns without being licensed as a Dealer. No, there IS no magic number that triggers that. No, it is not making a profit. It has been defined by the ATF as "Devoting time and attention to buying and selling with the intent of making a livelihood."

    Bought an M1 carbine for my collection. Found a better one, bought that. Decided to sell the first one. NOT engaging in the business.

    Decided I am no longer interested in Enfields, and I want to get a 1903A3. I put all of my Enfields up for sale. NOT engaging in the business.

    I buy 6 M/N 91/30s. Pick out one I want, and immediately offer the other 5 for sale. Good luck in proving THAT is NOT engaging in the business. I WILL bet you that you are going to spend more than your profits in legal costs for that.

    Do you need a dealer to sell an NFA item? No- but transfer must be made by a dealer with the correct license/ SOT.

    Is it interference with commerce? Of COURSE it is. And commerce is interfered with/ regulated/ prohibited/ taxed/ limited every day. Don't believe that? Go try to buy a case of dynamite without the licenses. Try to sell an ounce of coke. Take corn and convert it to a clear, flammable liquid.

    Sorry- old men tend to ramble a bit. If you are having to work at justifying what you do- it probably ain't right. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, could you PROVE it is a dove with funny feet? And THEY have more lawyers than YOU do.

    Disclaimer- I am not a lawyer. My FFL is a Collector's FFL, and not a dealer's. If there are some 01 or 02 FFLs that want to stick on oar in here, they are welcome. But if you go to the ATF website, you can pretty much read everything I just posted.
     
  18. GrtWhytHype

    GrtWhytHype New Member

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    Thanks for the clarification c3. That makes sense.