Does the ATF have records of gun sales?

Discussion in 'NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion' started by Coyotenator, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Coyotenator

    Coyotenator New Member

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    I was at a former gun retailer today and they said that when they closed their firearm retailing business, they were required to send all of the sales records for the last 20 years to the ATF, who is keeping them on file.

    Is this true and if it is, isn't that the same as registering those weapons?

    I know that they can get this info from the FFL's files by asking, but they have to have a reason to do so(recovery of a stolen weapon, used in the comission of a crime, etc.), but its different if they can go into their own files.
     
  2. gladesbassin

    gladesbassin New Member

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    I believe since they closed down then yes, they send the forms to the ATF. Otherwise as long as the shop is open then no. This is what I've heard and I'm not 100% sure but I believe it to be true.
     

  3. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, it is true. The BATFE is prevented by law from registering guns.
     
  4. silverado113

    silverado113 New Member

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    Yep we have to keep 4473s for 20 years, if you close you send them in. I'm sure they are sitting in a warehouse some where but if you are a member here you're on a list. We are all on someone's list.
     
  5. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Yes that is correct! Except for spot checks for reason. Unless the Dealer turns his books in when closing his business they do not have the records!:)

    03
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Glade is correct. Basically, when a dealer closes, their 4473s go to the ATF. The forms are warehoused. If ATF needs info on a crime trace from that dealer, they go dig thru the forms by hand.

    ATF has not had funding or legal permission to enter all of those records into a database. Barely has funds to warehouse them. That is a LOT of paper. My LGS is busy- about 500 guns a month. 7000 a year. Times 20 years. If they should close, ATF will need a semi to pick up the records. Multiply by ALL dealers that close.
     
  7. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    ...if your concerned about the BATFE keeping a registry of your gun purchases just move to a Southern Border State and only buy from dealers that are within 50 miles of a border crossing.

    For some unexplained reason our dutifull LEOS seem to have the hardest time tracking ANY firearms sold in this region? :rolleyes:

    Tack
     
  8. Old_Crow

    Old_Crow New Member

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    When the FFL holder calls in for the background check, do they report the serial number and type of gun? I am always to busy admiring my new toy to pay attention to what is said on the phone.
     
  9. gladesbassin

    gladesbassin New Member

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    Depends on the state your in, in Florida we do not register firearms so they only run a background on you and it's a very minor one. So I doubt that they are getting serial numbers and type of firearm.
     
  10. silverado113

    silverado113 New Member

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    They ask the type I.e. hand gun, long gun, other, but that's it. However, with a CCW most dealers don't have to do a NICS check. Of course if your state has other checks and/or requirements I can't speak on that.
     
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    no and yes sorta. they do not call in the serial number only your name and alias and personal description and social if you wisely listed it. the yes sorta is only in terms of whether its a handgun or long gun or other. giving your social helps speed up the proccess and make holds almost never happen.

    my wife has a couple of alias a former married name and since she lists her social after the first time she signed for a gun she speeds right through. the first time she got one and didnt use the social it was like a week to get a procceed since they had to track all her names and she has a fairly common name to boot.
     
  12. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    I'm sure alot of people here have seen the original Red Dawn,from the 1980's,right?

    Remember the part where the invading commie south American generalissimo or whatever tells his subordinates to collect the form 4473's from all the local gun shops in the newly occupied territory under his command?

    Well,he did that so he could have a list of gun owners,so he knew whom to send troops after to collect said guns.

    4473 might not be the kind of registration that the gun grabbers want,and it might be "mild" enough to not raise the hackles of those gun owners who still believe in Uncle Sam,but at any time,under whatever circumstances that can provoke it or pretenses that could allow the mob to accept it,the 4473 scheme can most certainly be used in the same fashion as any weapons registration scheme has been used before- to facilitate confiscation.

    Of course,an outright invasion isn't the only way the 4473 could be used to abuse the inalienable rights of Americans.We have plenty of domestic adversaries of liberty here at home.

    In other words,should the Obama nightmare continue for 4 more years and should he turn his attention to "gun control" as some in his administration are promising to do,if the government wants to begin confiscations,those on the 4473 will likely be the first people they look for.

    You should think of 4473 as a de-facto registration scheme.

    It doesn't need to be centrally kept to be readily accessible and easily abused by tyrants of any stripe.

    Oh,and the last time I checked,the Constitution didn't give the federal government permission to have such a scheme.

    So not only is it dangerous to liberty,its totally illegitimate and unlawful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  13. Eturnsdale

    Eturnsdale New Member

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    I seem to remember a story breaking a while ago where the BATFE sought funding to make all the records they had collected from FFLs that had gone out of business. It didn't fly.

    As to the 4473s themselves used as a registry like in Red Dawn. It certainly is possible. But the sheer manpower required and money involved would not allow it to go unnoticed. Something to think about? Yes.
     
  14. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Legally-owned handguns in New York are tied to an individual and registered by serial number. You can't buy or sell a handgun legally without transferring the serial number to/from your permit from/to someone else's permit. THAT'S onerous registration!

    4473s are not like that. Yes, it shows a record that you made a purchase, but for long guns and in many states for handguns, face-to-face sales are legal and receipts are not required; it's impossible to know who has what based on 4473 paperwork alone.

    Does the FBI track NICS checks in a database? If they do, the government already knows who the likely gun-owners are; 4473 records are unnecessary.
     
  15. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    And here in Virginia, there IS no FBI/ NICS check. Virginia had the first instant check system in the US- run by the Virginia State Police- and it is still in use. So when a dealer here does the background check (on line) it is thru the State Police, not FBI. And, as said, there is no tracking of a private sale. No, they do not get make model SN of the guns(s) you are buying- they get your ID info, and type of gun- long gun, handgun, other.
     
  16. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    I would think they have to keep records of all FBI background checks that are approved or declined. If you have a question on a background check they can bring it up.

    I was contacted by the BATF on a handgun that I had owned 30 years before. The gun was found at a crime scene in California. I can assure you someone is keeping records.:(
     
  17. silverado113

    silverado113 New Member

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    That's because they called the manufacture who said we sold it to this distributor who said we sold it to this dealer who said we sold it to this guy. I've done NICS checks online and had an issue so I called in and they had no idea what check I was talking about. You should call up and ask a question, you'll see.
     
  18. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Exactly. It is called a gun trace. ATF will track a gun (as far as they can) for LE. I have run several. Sometimes it is to find the rightful owner and return the gun to them. Sometimes when guns are stolen the victim does not know the serial number and the lecal LEO's are too lazy or too ignorant to find it. The gun turns up sometime later. A gun trace will lead me to the first purchaser. If they can provide enough information to show that it was, in fact, stolen, I give it back.

    ATF is forbidden, by law, from compiling a database on guns/owners. A few years back Congress learned that ATF was compiling the information in a database from the old 4473's. Congress ordered the files to be deleted and slapped ATF on the wrist.

    NICS data is required to be purged after 3 days.
     
  19. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    I rest my case.

    A record that so and so made a purchase of such and such on a certain date.to be held for no less then 20 years explicitly for the needs of government enforcement.
    I'm glad so many people are comfortable with the fact that its been limited to disallow the BATFEces direct compilation and control over these records,but they're still there and they're still very much available to the BATFEces.

    No,its not "perfect" registration such as to be found in some of the more odious locales where the 2A is held in the highest contempt,but it is,in fact,an abusable tool that has no place being in the arsenal of a government that is clearly told it has no power to infringe on the ownership of arms.

    Hypothetically,should the government decide to confiscate arms,this is where they will begin.
    Hypothetically,if you traded or sold the weapon privately and they are serious about it,they will haul your butt in to try to find out who got the gun.

    For those who think that the law prohibiting BATFEces from doing anything will stop them,lets just revisit the fact that the law against international gun trafficking and being complicit in crimes as serious as homicide by facilitating the murder of perhaps thousands hasn't held this rouge agency in check regarding operation Fast and Loose,or whatever.
    And being that they've already been caught once breaking this specific law,and received a mere slap on the wrist for their troubles,and being that it appears as though they are above the law even regarding breaking the laws they enforce on the rest of us and even natural laws like thou shalt not murder,I have oh so much confidence they're obedient to this one.:rolleyes:

    And to those who think that it would be too much of a burden fiscally and on manpower,need I remind you that this government is willing to go 16 trillion dollars in debt to finance the agendas legislated from on high,and that the government is currently the biggest employer in this nation,while the average government employee's salary has far outpaced their contemporary in the private sector.

    The IRS just got how many tens of thousands of new openings and how many millions or even BILLIONS of dollars JUST to enforce obamacare?

    If the mob decides that confiscations are the answer to the "gun problem" in this nation,they will have no problem fiscally or with manpower to do it.The issue as to whether or not this will create trouble with particularly loyal to the Constitution members of the police and the federal government is another discussion,but the tools -the funds,the manpower,and the ability TO KNOW WHO HAS WHAT or at least where to start looking,are already there.

    And to those who say that "it is illegal" for them to have a central registry,its also illegal to have any form of "gun control" as per the fact that the Constitution itself grants no such authority and the Bill of Rights,Second Amendment actually goes further to directly prohibit it.

    But that ain't stoppin 'em.

    Perhaps because so many people have simply rolled over and acquiesced?




    Anyway- serial numbers should be for owners to keep track of their property,just like when you serialize your TV set in case of burglary.You should take pictures of your guns and keep records,just like all of your other property.
    If only for insurance purposes.

    Serial numbers should not be utilized to regulate the sale and possession of private property -any property- by a government that is supposed to respect the rights of people to property ownership,especially when said property is given the extra protection from government infringement by an article in the Bill of Rights expressly directed at achieving such.

    Record keeping has been the hallmark of tyranny since at least the dark days of Nazi Germany,where IBM machines were utilized to generate identification incidents that were then used on the personal papers of Germans and tattoo'd into the wrists of concentration camp inmates.
    In America,the FBI has been in controversy at one point or another for collecting information on citizens without proper authority.
    Today,there is no need for the FBI to risk scandal,because so many people willingly give up such information on the social networking sites of the Internet.

    There is no possible way that we can be a free society with a government that has elaborate and well funded mechanisms of record keeping and control of individual citizens.

    Such practices are antithetical to liberty and a threat to even the lives of the citizens of a nation.

    We should not tolerate the 4473 scheme,which is,in fact, an available database of firearms ownership records directly available to the ATF.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  20. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Should one purchase or transfer two or more pistols or revolvers (and in some cases rifles), there is another form filled out.
    1 copy stays with the original 4473,
    1 copy goes to the local LEO,
    and 1 copy goes to the BATF.

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf