do you guys think there is a future for caseless rounds?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by KartoffelSalat, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. KartoffelSalat

    KartoffelSalat New Member

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    ive been thinking alot about the G11 as of late, im not really sure where to put this....

    do you guys think anyone will ever make the move to caseless ammo again?

    Regarding WHY the G11 is not in service with the German Bundeswehr, ive heard two different things...

    1. the rifle was simply TOO damn deadly for the Geneva convention (seems doubtful)

    2. Germany didn't have the money (seems more likely)

    i dont know, seems like that would be a good thing for US troops to use even,

    but to my knowledge no one is ever going to produce a military rifle using caseless ammo again
     
  2. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    look up metalstorm on the internet. you can also find it under firestorm

    the only constant in the universe is change
     

  3. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    money drives everything. caseless ammo costs too much to produce in massive quantities. unless there is some amazing tech or manufacturing process breakthrough, caseless ammo is nothing but an interesting sidenote. i think of it in the same class of goofiness as the trund and gyrojet.
     
  4. KartoffelSalat

    KartoffelSalat New Member

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    whats really interesting? i just stumbled upon this

    Modell VEC91

    1.8mm 5-shot group from 100 meters......now thats a group
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  5. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    the biggest problem with caseless ammo is how to keep the propellant in proper working order. After having it rained on, in a sweaty LBV, drug through mud and dust bouncing around in the back of 5,000 different military trucks planes and ships.

    The life of military equipment is a tough life. Me personally broke quite a few things in the military trying to get the job done. I even once welded the barrel of a 249 to the receiver. If you think someone is unbreakable give it to a Combat Engineer and he will break it for you in under 15 minutes. Once you redesign it then give it to the USMC and let them go at it. It is doesn't break in 10 minutes you just might be on to something. Your looking at a guy that took the governor off his HMMWV and would jump it when ever he had the chance. I treated that truck like a red headed step child and beat the living hell out of it in training. That way I knew how far I could push it in combat if I needed too. I even blew the pumpkin clean off a M920 tractor in the Army. Train as you fight.

    There needs to be something there to protect the propellant. If is all fine and dandy in the metal storm thing because it is all tested in sunny clear days that are between 65 and 80 degrees.
     
  6. GNLaFrance

    GNLaFrance New Member

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    I remember our supply lieutenant said to a group of us, "I could take two of you swabbies, strip you naked and put you in an empty room with nothing but an anvil. When I came back in an hour, the anvil would be in at least two pieces, and neither one of you would have any idea how it happened." :D
     
  7. seedy

    seedy Member

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    Go shoot a muzzleloader for a while and then you'll appreciate cased ammo. I don't see a future for it . CD
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    There has been "caseless" ammo around for a long time. There were cartridges for the ball and cap revolvers that were a bullet and a powder charge held together by coloidion (guncotton dissolved in ether), the Volcanic pistol cartridge (minie ball with powder charge in the hollow, dot of primer on the rear) The Daisy V-L caseless .22, etc. They all had the common problem of protecting the propellant- and how the hell do you get a loaded round out of the chamber? We even experimented with caseless artillery sized rounds- for the 152mm (?) gun on the Sheridan. DO NOT try to throw another round in when there is a bit of spark or ember in the chamber- you may need those eyebrows one day.
     
  9. Fisherking

    Fisherking New Member

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    I think the Inline Muzzel loaders would be clasified as a caseless riffled round. So yes I think they will be around for some time.
    F.K.
     
  10. IXLR8

    IXLR8 New Member

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    Caseless ammos downfall is twofold. One, it cooks in hot chambers. Two, metal cased ammo removes a lot of heat from the chamber in the form of spent cartridge cases. HK spent a bundle trying to make it work. For limited low firing rate applications it would be optimum, because you save the weight of the cases = more carrying capacity.

    The only future application may be based on the Sci-fi hyper-velocity rifles used in the movie "Eraser". Now they were way cool. The "EM-1 Railgun" EM-1 Link
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  11. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    As a "former" Marine I concur with that statement :rolleyes: :p
     
  12. whtsmoke

    whtsmoke New Member

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    Fisherking what makes you say that? is it because of the pellets?
     
  13. Possible

    The major application would be for vehicle mounted guns; machine-guns on aircraft or ground vehicles.

    As mentioned the big problem is maintaining the viability of the propellant. On a vehicle mount, the ammunition magazines would do that in reasonable (an intentionally vague word) manner. Plus, the weight savings for aircraft and ground vehicle would be remarkable.

    I'm not so sure about individual weapons, unless the ammunition came pre-loaded in magazines. That would be expensive.

    As a reloader, I think the idea sucks.
     
  14. Fisherking

    Fisherking New Member

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    I must say that I'm biased against the inline ML. To me the are a caseless single shot riffle. When the ML seasion was introduced I don't think they were thinking inlines.
    F.K.
     
  15. whtsmoke

    whtsmoke New Member

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    i just thought because of the solid pellets you were considering it caseless ammo but, caseless ammo has the projectle attached to it. the m/l question is kind of a sore spot to me as it should be traditonal weapons, it was suppose to be that way. imo
     
  16. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The big guns on battle ships were caseless. The shell was loaded and bags of powder were stuffed in behind it. They were essentially very big breech loading black powder rifles.
     
  17. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Caseless ammo worked on a battle ship because they could keep the powder stored and away from heat, water, light and many other factors that would cause problems.

    Caseless ammo will never really work for ground force battle units. If you have ever been in a military unit that went to the field you will know what I mean. You sweat your *** off in the summer you freeze your *** of in the winter. You are rain soaked in the fall and spring. None of the military vehicles I ever had, had AC some had head some didn't. Some didn't even have roofs or doors. There is no way to keep caseless ammo out of the elements that are going to ruin it and still have it ready to go at a seconds notice.

    Fighting and training are not done in clean rooms. You are out int he heat cold and DIRT.

    Now if there was a way to coat the propellant with a membrane that would just burn off leaving no residue in the firearm then that would be an option but you still have to ignite it.
     
  18. whtsmoke

    whtsmoke New Member

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    do a search and read about caseless ammo, breach loading guns on navel vessels do not use caseless ammo, caseless ammo has the charge primer and projectile all formed together as one unit, H&K developed a casless weapon but didnt really go anywhere with it.
     
  19. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Not just big guns on ships-
    The 105 - 155 Holitzer are (were?) caseless we used in Viet Nam about a hundred yrs ago :eek:
     
  20. KartoffelSalat

    KartoffelSalat New Member

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    smart-assedness aside (i meant in the tradition of the G11 project)

    i do beleive G11 ammo was to come in prepackaged in magazines...

    firing from an open bolt would PROBABLY solve the cook off problem, though the ones that exist now ARE made of a special high ignition temp propellant which drastically reduces that problem anyway

    it IS probably too expensive for all but the rich personal shooter, but thats not the issue

    the G11 WAS a super accurate, extremely deadly, early war stopper, and i think with the proper care and research, may actually be viable in todays battlefields

    my only reservation would really be the vibration of shipping chipping the propellant off the projectiles as i dont think being in someones 782 gear would resonate them enough.

    believe me, i know Marines can break anything, i managed to break $170,000 MRAP's on a regular basis