Do you believe in limp-wristing?

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by Mercator, May 24, 2014.

  1. Yes

    38 vote(s)
    84.4%
  2. Undecided

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%
  3. No

    6 vote(s)
    13.3%
  1. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    There is evidence that "limp-wristing" is an urban legend among shooters. It is a false explanation of shooter-induced malfunctions. Please vote!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    limp wristing is not a myth by any stretch. its a descriptive term for loosely holding a handgun during firing allowing it to recoil nearly freely and twist via torque in the grip.

    a loose grip allows movement of the hammer and hammer spring in such firearms to shift the poa as tension in the spring is released by the sear.

    in semi auto's weak grip or "limp wristing" allows the firearm receiver to recoil rearward at the same time as the slide. if there is a loose enough grip the slide will not come back far enough to eject or load the next cartridge.

    all this can and has been demonstrated in videos by using strings to activate the triggers in firearmslaying loose on tables or other devices designed to illustrate the effects of a loose grip or "limp wristing".

    some semi auto are less susceptible to the effects some more so. the M9 berretta is not nearly as prone to malfunction from a loose grip as its a direct blowback design than something like a 1911 or glock which are delayed blowback.

    in revolvers limp wristing can cause forehead denting if the cartridge is powerful enough
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014

  3. rifleman1

    rifleman1 New Member

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    i have seen it happen and know that it is very real.
     
  4. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    They are all locked breech designs. :confused:

    Here is the competing explanation. The problem is in anticipating recoil. Your hand makes a slight move to mitigate the upcoming recoil. The move is reflexive, therefore imperceptible. When the gun is totally still, even if held between two fingers, it will cycle. As long as it is held still until it fires.

    What it practically means, you focus on the trigger pull without "anticipating". Keeping your wrists rigid is not that important, as long as you maintain good trigger control and target acquisition.
     
  5. rifleman1

    rifleman1 New Member

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g7kZx7g-Xm8[/ame]
     
  6. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Most people who are anticipating recoil drop their head among other mechanical errors. The moment I catch myself dropping my head I get the Colt Diamondback 22. Usually I get over it in just a few short sessions.
     
  7. Steel_Talon

    Steel_Talon New Member

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    ;)..

    Proper hand gun grip, requires the wrist to be locked and "in-line" If not malfunctions will show up.. And recoil will be less manageable however significant that might be to the shooter.
     
  8. kbd512

    kbd512 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    The so-called "limp wresting" phenomenon is a term for a real application of physics.

    When held loosely, a Glock/S&W/SIG/make doesn't matter polymer frame pistol (most especially pistols chambered for lower power calibers that produce lower recoil forces, generally 9MM or .380 ACP) do not exert enough force on the heavy steel slide during the firing sequence to unlock, eject, and feed the next cartridge in the magazine.

    If you hold a polymer frame pistol the way it was meant to be held, using a normal firing grip, it's pretty difficult to accomplish, but it can be done. Higher power loads tend not to have as pronounced a problem, but the problem can still occur.

    The aluminum, steel, and titanium frame pistols have enough mass in the frame that it's just about impossible to accomplish. The issue is inertia. The aluminum/steel/titanium frames have more mass in the frame and so inertia is more difficult to overcome, consequently, the slide has something that won't move as easily to push against during recoil.

    In layman's terms, inertia would be a resistance to a change in the state of motion of an object. Basically, it is more difficult to move a frame with a heavier mass, so the slide moves backwards on the frame with sufficient force to unlock, eject, and feed.

    Thanks physics 101!
     
  9. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Limp wristing as a cause for malfunction is VERY real. Trying to use it to explain aiming/impact errors is incorrect. Anticipating recoil is very different from limp wristing adn the two should not be discussed in the same sentence. A firm grip can still suffer from anticipating
     
  10. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    Rifleman, the video is wrong. The slide appears to be locked back after the fired shot. That's not a wrist issue.

    But even then, if you look closely frame by frame, you will see her withdrawing the gun ever so slightly as she pulls the trigger. That's anticipation.
     
  11. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    There is another good reason to do it, but not to ensure the cycling. I can hold the gun between two fingers, and it will cycle, if I don't jerk it before firing. This is not home research, I learned this from professional trainers. I was as incredulous initially as any of you here.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  12. wknight40

    wknight40 New Member

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    It is very real especially on lighter pistols. A prime example is the SCCY pistol. The way it is designed if you do not have your wrist properly locked you will get a FTF/FTE.

    I have a SCCY and experienced this many times in getting used to it. For those not familiar with it the SCCY is a very light 9mm. Polymer frame stainless steel slide. Nearly all of the weight is in the slide itself. So doing anything that interferes with the cycling of the slide you get FTF/FTE.

    Last weekend a friend of mine tried my SCCY and had 4 FTE in 10 rounds. I reloaded it and fired 10 flawless. I also had a chance to try his S&W M&P9. Slightly heavier overall and a skinnier grip. I liked the way it fired. I would like to get a M&P9 myself now. I feel getting used to the SCCY and learning to control the muzzle flip and recoil of the SCCY it would make shooting the M&P more accurate.

    But for the most part I believe those that shoot larger/heavier pistols do not need to worry about "limp wristing" as much as those shooting light pistols. Granted a pistol that is matched to the hand size of the shooter helps a lot. The SCCY does have a larger grip then the M&P9 I shot which can make it more difficult to grip until you are used to it.
     
  13. gr8oldguy

    gr8oldguy New Member

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    I think enough research has been done to prove that limp wristing can create a malfunction in a semi-auto handgun. I don't remember the study, but it seemed that Glocks were not as prone to feeding/ejecting issues than other handguns. It makes sense. If the shooter doesn't create a stiff resistance for the grip, the slide will not operate correctly. good luck
     
  14. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    If limp wristing is true, why is it such an issue with Glocks?
     
  15. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    It is a cause, but not a common cause.
    Most are too scared of the gun to hold it too loose.
     
  16. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    If you Limp wrist a Webley Fosbery 38, all you will get is one shot. Most of the action on the WF was produced by the kickback and without it, it wont cycle, recock and reload. Thats a fact not an urban legend, been there, done that. My guess is that just about any semi will give you the same outcome if your not solid with your grip and stance.

    Another issue with a limp wrist shooters is flying pistols. The grip is key to maintaining control and possession of the gun. Ive seen a few on military ranges fly out of folks hands that were lass than bonded to the grip before they pulled the trigger, the old 45's were not forgiving of a less than solid grip on them and will kick your ass.

    Besides, if your trying to lay down accurate sustained fire with a semi pistol, keeping a solid aim point is dependent on your consistent return to the target after the last bullet exits, thats not easy to do with a rubber wrist.
     
  17. sputnik1988

    sputnik1988 Active Member

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    Limp wristing does cause malfunctions, it's a proven fact. I've tested it myself a long with thousands of others, several of my handguns are flawless when held correctly but jam constantly when limp wristed.

    The only way you could deny it is complete dismissal of valid evidence... Akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la" :rolleyes:
     
  18. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Honestly, after learning how to shoot correctly from the gitgo, I really have a hard time testing the theory. My wrist doesnt know how to lose its rigidity when shooting. Truthfully, I never tried to make a weapon malfunction but I do remember shooting the Web Fos a couple times without a solid stance and it did not cycle, just pop and hung.

    Im guessing the newer lighter actions are much more forgiving than Web Fos 38. It literally had to move half the weight of the weapon back 1/2 inch to rotate the cylinder and recock the hammer. A 38 isnt that spunky to begin with but the heavy "Automatic" action took more than it gave back. It was very accurate but lost reliability points, stopping and reach out power to gain the semi automatic action.

    In the end, the Gang GAT stance is akin to wearing your baseball cap sideways, infective and only good for a rap video. I stripped out more damn Philips bits before I realized that it was my presentation that was lacking not the screwdriver. Butt Stock and grip Weld, Stance, breathing control and sight picture are all part of uniting the human with the tool no matter if its a Dewalt screwgun or a Remington Machinamablaster.

    In guessing any tool were gonna depend on with life or career needs to be given the best chance of serving us well or we will let ourselves down in the end. I go with the assumption that only phasers are safe with a limp wrist, any powder or motor actuated device with a grip or handle needs solid control or your not going to be effective with it.
     
  19. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    The problem with such demonstrations is shooter bias. You can cause a malfunction if you want to, then call it limp wristing. In a logically sound trial you should do the opposite - try NOT to cause a malfunction while holding your wrist unlocked.

    I think enough said, we are not going to convert anyone on paper. The turnout is good. If we could put this on November ballots maybe more conservatives would show up. :)
     
  20. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Like I said before, it was never my intention to cause a missfire in my life, its seems so counter-intuitive to try. The ones Ive experienced in regards to pistols failing to feed was a limp wrist and another time when shooting the new military issue piece, I hit the slide release and the whole top of the weapon fell off into the sand (They laughed like hell in the tower on the PA and sent a private over to show an old Platoon Sgt me what I did wrong, lesson well learned). Both times it was my fault and once I got with the program, I never experienced that again.

    Weapon Malfunctions do occur often and mostly due to improper maintenance and or unfamiliarity. Occasionally, you just get a bad cartridge but its been rare for me. I have seen a Glowing red M16 melt down, still have a tattoo or 2 from less than glowing Ma deuces that jambed for no aperant reasons (headspace and timing are always blamed) and a service pistol sparkly clean on the outside and nasty on the inside, even the wrong lube can screw up some actions.

    Below is a nice little article on my namesake Web Fos and they describe the failure to feed limp wrist syndrome and liken it to some of the same issues in new handguns.

    http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html