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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm fairly new here and not a longstanding gun enthusiast. However, my wife and I just finished our CCW course. Our main objective is self defense (she has had a few close calls over the years, with perpetrators). Oddly enough, the main takeaway I walked away with, was a strong fear of ever using the firearm, for fear that I'd end up in prison because I was prosecuted and convicted. And it wouldn't be because I was irresponsible, but because I thought it was self-defense, while the prosecution and judge determined it was unwarranted. In other words, by their account, the situation didn't require that I use the firearm. I wonder what we can do to protect ourselves from such a mess.

The CCW instructor mentioned that we should consider $1-2M insurance policies to help cover something like this. Who sells this type of insurance at affordable prices? Is it worth it?

They also mentioned NRA membership. Other than supporting that movement, which I believe in their principles, what other benefits come from that that could help us?

What else can we do to help protect against something like this?
 

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Check out USCCA.com. They offer three levels of coverage, training, and an attorney network.

I have been a member since before I received my Florida CWL.
 

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Welcome to the FTF covey.

I have a USCCA membership for myself and my wife.

United States Concealed Carry Association.

We also carry a personal liability umbrella rider on our homeowner's insurance, added it when we bought a house with a pool the first time.
 

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I'm fairly new here and not a longstanding gun enthusiast. However, my wife and I just finished our CCW course. Our main objective is self defense (she has had a few close calls over the years, with perpetrators). Oddly enough, the main takeaway I walked away with, was a strong fear of ever using the firearm, for fear that I'd end up in prison because I was prosecuted and convicted. And it wouldn't be because I was irresponsible, but because I thought it was self-defense, while the prosecution and judge determined it was unwarranted. In other words, by their account, the situation didn't require that I use the firearm. I wonder what we can do to protect ourselves from such a mess.
Not much will protect against having society judging we fumbled, despite not having done so. It's how the "justice" (legal) system works, with indictments and trials and juries evaluating and determining if they agree.

It's how the statutes are basically written, regarding use-of-force. With some minor variations from state to state, in the U.S., you're essentially acknowledged as having every right and authority to defend life, so long as your actions are reasonable and justified, and essentially so long as an after-action review committee (the DA and jury of your peers) agrees with you. But if you've completely fouled the bed, they retain authority to charge you accordingly, if it's fairly clear (to the DA under the laws of your state) that you fouled up.

About the only serious guard you've got against that being abused is: get it right; don't foul up; ensure that you've every reasonable justification for doing what you do. And, hopefully, be capable of backing that up and verifying that.

That being said, it's all well and good to have initial bail funds covered and have initial seeking of legal counsel covered, from a costs standpoint. But that's only a financial consideration. Nothing will actually keep a conviction from happening if a DA seeks indictment and a jury actually convicts you. No matter what the paperwork says on any such "insurance" policy.

For the financial aspect, I'm all for something like what's been mentioned above. Such as the offering by the Armed Citizens' Defense Network.

As for the action aspect? Get it right, ensure your actions are reasonable, ensure you've essentially got "your back against the wall" and there wasn't much choice in the matter, that any reasonable person would have done what you did.
 

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HBD- Huge Big Disclaimer!'
I am not a lawyer, do not give legal advice.

In my view, there are two different aspects of legal matters after a shooting.

One is criminal- the State alleges that you violated the state law. NO insurance is going to pay a fine on your behalf- that is illegal. And they cannot buy you out of jail (well, it some small nations in Central America, maybe) But insurance MAY provide legal representation for you. SOME groups offer to provide a guarantee of bail pending trial.

The other aspect is CIVIL- the party you shot (or their heirs) claims that you were negligent, and because of that they suffered financial harm, and you should have to pay that. TOTALLY different but connected to the first. Again , insurance can provide for legal defense- AND- in some circumstances, pay an award that a court makes.

If you have Homeowner's insurance, it provides for SOME liability insurance for the civil actions. I also carry an umbrella policy for a lot more money. Premium is pretty cheap. Talk to your insurance agent. If the insurance company has a higher amount at stake, they are likely to pay more attention to getting a good law firm.

In addition there ARE groups like the US Concealed Carry Association the specialize in defensive firearms use only. Look at what they offer.

And just an editorial from me- my compliments to your instructor. The use of a firearm should be when other alternatives are not going to work- your last choice. There is no do-over in a shooting.
 

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Im all for doing what makes you feel safer, so if " insurance" for a justified sd shoot does that buy the policy.

That said , if you screwed the pooch and shot someone you shouldn't have , most of these " insurances" will look at the case and refuse to defend you.
If its a good justified sd shoot youll be ok anyway.

In several states the burden of proof is on the state to prove the shoot was bad instead of the shooter having tp defend the shoot.
In my state unless there is clear , strong evidence that the shoot was not SD police cant charge, arrest , or detain the shooter claiming SD.
 

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Im all for doing what makes you feel safer, so if " insurance" for a justified sd shoot does that buy the policy.

That said , if you screwed the pooch and shot someone you shouldn't have , most of these " insurances" will look at the case and refuse to defend you.
If its a good justified sd shoot youll be ok anyway.

In several states the burden of proof is on the state to prove the shoot was bad instead of the shooter having tp defend the shoot.
In my state unless there is clear , strong evidence that the shoot was not SD police cant charge, arrest , or detain the shooter claiming SD.
For most of us, even if the shooting is a justified SD, an attorney will be necessary, if only to ward off frivolous lawsuits.
 

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Having sat on the "defendent's" chair in Federal Court being sued (several times), I offer this advice: It's not fun.

We won every case. Because those cases were civil rights cases, most were against the county or state of Missouri. We were also liable personally to some extent in a couple. None were criminal. A few lasted for many years (one over 20 years). It was not until 5 years after the last suit was settled that I owned ANYTHING as sole owner other than a handful of pistols registered to me. Everything (property, vehicles, retirement, etc. had to be in joint ownership to avoid the possibility of a bad decision in court.


Initial demands were in hundreds of thousands of dollars, one was 100 million for a murderer whose case was overthrown 23 years later. I was represented by attorneys (mostly on state payroll, some paid by insurance). Attorney fees just for our side were enormous. Were I a private citizen, the cases we won would've wiped out everything we owned and much of what we would earn the rest of our lives. Had we lost and been found personally liable...duh.

Retired, without benefit of protection from my employment, Iam a member of the USCCA strictly for the liability insurance protection. The USCCA is NOT an association, it's a private company. At $15 a month, I have a bit of coverage at a reasonable cost. Other insurance options are available.

To anticipate using a firearm against someone without the possibility of losing everything you own is fooliish.
 

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m_ridzon

Out friends here on the Forum have given you some excellent advise. USCCA is a good option. I only assume when getting insurance with an insurance company regarding some type of a Bond to cover use with a "Weapon" would be pretty expensive, to cover the amount of a possible law suit or legal defense?

But the main thing is you and your wife must study and know the use of force laws upside down when it comes to self defense. And especially when using a firearm to protect yourself is involved. But to make it simple the Courts would look at any such action "from a reasonable persons view". Was the person who used the force in "Direct" fear of serious bodily injury or death! One must understand those parameters completely! You can do everything as you should, but in use of force and especially shootings, one can normally expect some kind of law suit. That is why I belong to USCCA. Even being very familiar with the use of force being a retired Law Enforcement Officer and Firearms Instructor for years. So IMO some type of representation is needed and some type of coverage is always good thing as Sheriffjohn mentioned.

But again when carrying one must know without a doubt when appropriate force can be used. And understand the responsibility of carrying. Not to at all discourage you and your wife just know when, where and how to use the force and I as others here hope and pray you guy s never have to use it!

Above all being new, continue to shoot and get familiar with your weapons and continue to train with them. With them empty practice safely drawing from the holster in the location you will be carrying and holstering. Empty Dry Fire practice is also very good. (Developing Muscle Memory by repetition!) Too many people buy a weapon and a holster. Get their CCW Permit, shoot a very few rounds and carry it. Thinking they will be able to function effectively should the worst happen. With the human flight or fight response occurring at that time and adrenalin flowing, *fine motor skills we normally have goes to H**l! like finger dexterity and other fine motor skills are not working as they normally do!

03
 

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I am not a cop. I don't try to be one. The gun is my last option not my first. That said I still came very close to using one on more than one occasion. All it takes is a left wing anti gun prosecutor to put you in a major bind. I have USCCA membership.
 

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Buying the kind of insurance you are talking about would require you to hire a lawyer to find out what is and is not in the policy. A heck of a lot of insurance is worthless except to the insurance company. Some policies will give you a false sense of security until you understand the fine print. The problem for the consumer is he doesn't find out what a stinker that insurance is until he needs to use it.
 

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I am not a cop. I don't try to be one. The gun is my last option not my first. That said I still came very close to using one on more than one occasion. All it takes is a left wing anti gun prosecutor to put you in a major bind. I have USCCA membership.
I guess I'll join USCCA. I'm not a joiner. I have heard that they pay your lawyer fees only if you win. Guess it's still worth the investment in....me. :cool:
 

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I have heard that they pay your lawyer fees only if you win.
That's not true. Go to the Web site and chat with a representative. They will answer any questions you have.
 

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Another reason to join USCCA is their monthly magazine devoted entirely to defensive use of firearms. Women's portion is very good and covers topics often overlooked in CCW courses. With several hundred thousand "members" kicking in a minimum of $15 a month apiece, their product has improved markedly since I first signed up.

The first training videos were pretty lame in my opinion, markedly improved over the years. Magazine has also improved.
Advice on firearms, equipment, ammo, etc. is timely and links to suppliers helpful. When I finish reading mine, I leave them at the barbershop (minus my name/address). Barber says they get read alot.
 

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The state of Oklahoma is a little different than some states when it comes to self defense. The OK prosecutor is not required to take a self defense shooting to the grand jury. He/she can simply call the shooting a justified homicide and decline to prosecute. About ten years ago our Comanche county prosecutor declined to prosecute three self defense shootings in one year.

This lady got a pass:

Teen Mom Shoots, Kills Intruder With 911 Dispatcher on the Phone | Fox News

The family of the deceased perp can take up a petition for a grand jury to hear the case. Yep, very few people will sign a petition on behalf of the late deceased who was killed during a home invasion. :p



My lawyer says there has not been a successful civil lawsuit against a shooter in a case of justified homicide in OK since passage of the 1987 "make my day" law. One reason: Lawyers won't file those cases; if the case is lost someone must pay court costs. The same pertains to self defense shootings outside the home.

This civil lawsuit thing harks back the killing of a home invader by a Tulsa dentist during the Christmas, New Years holidays, 1986-87. A Tulsa dentist killed a home invader and was sued in civil court. There were also several murders of elderly couples during that time period.

A member of the OK legislature got really po'd and pushed bill through the legislature outlawing civil lawsuits by family members of people killed in home burglaries, home invasions, etc. The law was retroactive to cover the dentist.

My wife and i carry a two million dollar personal liability policy with the company that insures our home, other property and autos. How good is the policy? i don't wish to test it.
 

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The state of Oklahoma is a little different than some states when it comes to self defense. The OK prosecutor is not required to take a self defense shooting to the grand jury. He/she can simply call the shooting a justified homicide and decline to prosecute. About ten years ago our Comanche county prosecutor declined to prosecute three self defense shootings in one year.

This lady got a pass:

Teen Mom Shoots, Kills Intruder With 911 Dispatcher on the Phone | Fox News

The family of the deceased perp can take up a petition for a grand jury to hear the case. Yep, very few people will sign a petition on behalf of the late deceased who was killed during a home invasion. :p



My lawyer says there has not been a successful civil lawsuit against a shooter in a case of justified homicide in OK since passage of the 1987 "make my day" law. One reason: Lawyers won't file those cases; if the case is lost someone must pay court costs. The same pertains to self defense shootings outside the home.

This civil lawsuit thing harks back the killing of a home invader by a Tulsa dentist during the Christmas, New Years holidays, 1986-87. A Tulsa dentist killed a home invader and was sued in civil court. There were also several murders of elderly couples during that time period.

A member of the OK legislature got really po'd and pushed bill through the legislature outlawing civil lawsuits by family members of people killed in home burglaries, home invasions, etc. The law was retroactive to cover the dentist.

My wife and i carry a two million dollar personal liability policy with the company that insures our home, other property and autos. How good is the policy? i don't wish to test it.
My Dad had it mostly figured out. His philosophy was, "I'll do what's best for me". That covered a lot of unselfish ground. If you have to pause to think civil suits if killing someone in self-defense, you'll either lose that battle and die or most likely win if it was SD involving your life. I didn't quite word that eloquently, but the meaning is there.
 

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Short and simple, do you need insurance? Not until you truly do, and you'll be thankful you have it then, if you have the right policy.

Don't buy or sign anything until you have gone over it, with a lawyer, and keep that lawyer on retainer, to go over the policy renewals after that. Policies and laws change.

Myself, 2 million dollar blanket policy at this point, as we also have a business. Have USSCCA as well, as we have had it for close to 20 years. Never want to test it, but I weant it there, in case either of us Need it. Because even clear cut SD here, does go before the Grand Jury, and every shooting, no matter where you are, is going to be investigated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Wow! I hate the dichotomy of the options: death or possible heavy fines, court costs, & years in prison. If I am "backed against a wall" with a perpetrator, so to speak, that is a tough decision to face. It really makes me wonder how useful carrying a firearm would be.

Thanks for all of the feedback.
 
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