Dispelling The Myths Of Open Carry

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by partdeux, Apr 22, 2015.

  1. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    Pro Liberty Choice

    “Open carry gives away a citizen’s greatest tactical advantage, stealth and surprise.”

    Concealing one’s weapon as a tactical advantage is an offensive strategy, not a defensive one. The people who say they carry concealed so they can surprise an attacker are misguided. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react.

    If you have to surprise someone, you’re already in deep trouble. After you’ve been attacked, surprising your attacker is ridiculous. They already have the upper hand.

    The deterrent value of open carry

    Carrying a concealed firearm suggests to a criminal that you are unarmed. Every study says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. I do not understand the advantage of appearing to be unarmed. As Ed Levine, founder of Virginia Open Carry, has stated, the probability of me being a victim of a violent crime is completely unchanged by the fact that I have a gun hidden beneath my shirt. My goal is not to be a victim in the first place.

    I don’t want to have to shoot someone. Few people will attack an open carrier. If you feel better concealing, that’s fine. If I can, I prefer to stop the threat before it turns into a physical reality. If you think that it’s better to stop a threat using your surprise tactics once you’re on your back getting your head smashed in, then that’s your decision.

    source
     
  2. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

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    GRENADE :eek:


    no offense and none taken
     

  3. kfox75

    kfox75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My first thought reading that was "Duck and Cover!" followed by "Incoming!!!!".

    Kudos to those who decide to OC all the time, as it is their right to do so. I have even done it a few times myself where and when it has been acceptable to do so (Mainly rural, or where I am not the only one doing it at said place and time). As long as someone is carrying, they are a 2A activist by proxy, and most try to be friendly and professional when doing so. Sadly, I can't say this for all who do so.

    Yes, there are advantages to OC, as there are to CC. Keep in mind that the person typing this is a former NYer who grew up in an area where the only time you ever saw OC was during deer season after moving there from NC in the early 90s. Short of at a range or afield, OC I a no go in NY, and I now live in PA where OC is a gray area, I. E., defacto legal only due to the lack of laws written that say it is illegal. I am still adjusting to this fact after almost a year of living here, and a little over a ear after signing the lease. You do see it here in the city from time to time, but it is not commonplace by any means.

    I feel that there is a time and a place to OC, and there is a proper manner in which to do so. I OC myself at a couple businesses here in town that are owned by friends, but 99% of the 99.999999% of the time that I am carrying, it is CC by my own choice. To or from those shops I CC. Grocery runs, out to get the paper, walking the dogs, on a tow for my room mate's boss, same. This is how I carried in NY, so it is easier for me to stick with this method of carry. If an organized OC rally was set for the weekend, I would CC on the way there, and switch to OC upon arrival. Each has it's own pluses and minuses, CC just fits my lifestyle better. On to public perception.

    Aside from The 'Burg, and Philly, OC is fairy well accepted here in PA. A few of the news stations have interviewed LE on it as well as members of the public, but there is a fairly large amount of LE that feel it is a bit of a problem in that it tends to waste their time when they get a MWAG call, and have to respond to it. And yes, if a member of the public at large makes a complaint, they do have to at least look into it. It is their job to investigate those calls in the interest of public safety. I is not their job to harass the OCer, but anyone can have an off day or get fed up with a confrontational person. In my case, the $20 I spend for a 5 year LCTF is worth it just to prevent this IMHO. YMMV.

    I found the article to be well thought out, and well written, but I do have to ask this. If it is a right, as it clearly is, why do so many feel the need to justify their choice to OC with a long, drawn out argument? It could best be summed up by saying "If I have to explain it, you won't understand." with some folks. There will always be some that can be won over, but you will find just as many that will never see it your way, no matter how hard you try to make them see the light.

    Some things are bet kept a secret. How armed you are, and the cards in your hand while at a poker table are two of them. JMO. Respect my right to it, as I respect your right to yours.
     
  4. Dakota1

    Dakota1 Active Member

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    Anything can be rationalized.

    I had a co-worker who really liked to drink excessively. He said, "Alcohol's good for you."

    In my teens, a buddy liked to soup up his car. He said, "Having lots of horsepower helps you avoid accidents."
     
  5. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    Kfox,

    Thank you for the well thought out response.

    All of firearm rights are under fire. Anti's are heavily funded and supported by a complicit media. Detail discussion to dismiss the myths of both the anti's and even the claimed supporters.

    Hard to argue against, "for the safety of the children" with "It's in the Bill of Rights"

    Look up Overton Window. The technique is working even with the supposed 2A supporters. I take a more Libertarian view of "just leave me alone", while being very wary of "first they came for...".

    When MI first got CPL, the liberal claims of blood running in the street, not only didn't happen, but in fact crime rate dropped. When you look at it, the more conservative the police towards private citizen carry, the more crime dropped. The anti firearm cities, and a big surprise here, have the highest crime rates.
     
  6. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The sad part is that some folks actually believe that crap.:(
     
  7. kfox75

    kfox75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're welcome PD. It's just the way I prefer to post as less leads to discourse, which leads to arguing and then insults, and then the Mods have to start whacking folks with the time out or ban hammer. We have lost some good members and threads that way. No Bueno IMO.

    Looked up Overton Window, and I vaguely remember it from my HS G&E class in NC. Gives a bit of a new spin on why some of us think outside the box more than others. Good food for thought if nothing else.

    The "Blood will run like a river in the gutters!" response of the anti 2A crowd has always been around, and like GC in general, it is only the failure of it happening that furthers the claims that it will. I remember the same thing in NY when CC Permits came to be, just as it was in NC when I lived there. Both are well disproven at this point, but it still gets used by the opposition, most recently whenever Constitutional Carry is proposed, or, God help us, passed. Seems to be the Status Quo now a days.

    As I said, carry is carry, and we all have to stand together to keep the right to do so. OCers bring it out into the daylight for all to see, which does raise awareness in some cases, but it just seems that some of them feel that the opinions of those who are not comfortable with it should never matter. Granted, there are those that just feel that guns are evil for no other reason than watching to many films by Spike Lee or John Singleton. Or just too many Westerns as a kid. The other side of this coin is, that woman who is afraid of any MWAG could be a rape survivor who was assaulted at gun point. In that case, I can understand the basis of her fears as it is not just the gun that she is concerned about.

    To me it is just way simpler to not disturb the sheep in my day to day interactions with them. Most, in my own experience, don't seem to even notice or care one way or the other, but why risk stirring up trouble for me if one of them freaks out and calls LE? Not to mention that LE here in Erie has enough to deal with every day, so I don't want to wind up taking up their time when it could be better spent dealing with the real problems here in the city.

    My main reason to support OC is a simple one. In NY, printing is enough to get you in trouble with some LEOs, and some will hit you with a brandishment charge if the wind blows the wrong way and lifts your cover garment enough to show the tip of your holster. Not an issue here, because OC is not defined as a no go or a go, making it defacto legal. I find it very liberating to be able to carry a full size handgun in an OWB holster in the middle of summer, and not have to fear arrest due to a wind shift, and most folks are in favor of carry in either form here. They know how bad it is North of 26th Street, which is where I live and conduct most of my business.

    What I do not support is OC as done by the YouTube Zeros that walk around looking for trouble with LE. I fully get the idea of recording you interaction with a LEO, as it can be used to support either side of the story if it winds up in court, but to willingly provoke a response from LE is a stupid idea in general. Nobody wins a sidewalk pissing contest with a cop, and this is what winds up on the mews most of the time. It puts all of us, CC or OC, in the public eye in a very bad way. If the good interactions (respectful yes Sir, no Sir from both involved parties) were in the public eye at 23:00 hours every night, we would have less issues, or at least a better balance in public perception. There are just too many Jackwagons who don't seem to get the Golden rule: Treat others the way you wish to be treated, and they are a major cause of our potential downfall in the long run.

    It boils down to this. The good we do in life is never remembered, and the bad we d will never be forgotten. That is why I said "If it is done the right way." From what I have read (Not just on here) and seen of your group, you guys and gals get this. Next time you're at a meeting, tell them I said good job, and keep up the good work.
     
  8. gr8oldguy

    gr8oldguy New Member

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    Open carry doesn't deter crime anymore than the surprise of concealed carry is an advantage. Someone who is open carrying a firearm is going to be attacked from the back. Criminals might be worthless to mankind but most of them have street smarts. I'll continue to conceal carry and paying attention to my surroundings as best I can.
     
  9. wknight40

    wknight40 New Member

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    Under "Freedom of Speech" we should have the "right" to say anything we want. But this is not the case as people's "feelings" get hurt. Just because we have the "right" to do something does not mean we should do it.

    OC/CC is a personal preference and there is a right time and place for either. One is not anymore correct than another. As mentioned the guy with the gun is generally the one to go first and will probably be blind sided. The CC carrier may need to wait for the proper time to reveal himself or may choose to not to depending on the situation. As a citizen we are not obligated to interfere in a crime and cannot be, should not be, prosecuted for not interfering/ attempting to stop the crime.

    If you carry and are comfortable with the way you are, done. Enjoy it.
     
  10. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    "Under "Freedom of Speech" we should have the "right" to say anything we want. But this is not the case as people's "feelings" get hurt. Just because we have the "right" to do something does not mean we should do it."


    What a ridiculous statement. So we shouldn't say things that need to be said because it might hurt some ones feelings. With that logic we wouldn't be able to say anything because somewhere there is somebody who might be offended by it. What's the point of having rights if we can't use them?

    Many on here think choice is perfectly fine when it comes to ending a child's life but throw a fit over choice of carry.
     
  11. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    FBI study demonstrated that criminals fear private citizens with firearms more than police.
     
  12. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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    kfox,

    Be really careful about drawing conclusions from youtube videos. We had one here in MI. The FUDDS came out in force condemning the guys actions... and based on the youtube video I have to agree. HOWEVER, I know the rest of the story. Police were going to do whatever it took to force him to comply with what they wanted. They continued to step up the harassment until it escalated. He was doing nothing wrong nor illegal, but they were tiring of the daily calls to check him out. He had already been vetted, they knew who he was, they knew he did the same walk every single day. So instead of telling the callers to stop swatting the same guy, they're going to force a change in his behavior. Contempt of cop is an arrestable charge. Even the 2A attorneys are tiring of it and have taken to filing lawsuits against municipalities to stop the nonsense.
     
  13. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    Perhaps they do. But what FBI study are you talking about? have you read it?
     
  14. So, concealing will prevent a criminal from sneaking up behind me and attacking?

    Dayuummm, I wish I knew that earlier.

    Question for you, IF carrying openly doesn't deter crime then why do the police (who I might note are carrying openly) dressed in highly visible distinctive uniforms, drive highly visible distinctively painted cars, and have bright shiny badges on their chests?
    Wouldn't they be more effective if they dressed only in plain clothes so that the bad guys wouldn't know when the police were around? Mr BankRobber would never know if the person beside or behind him in the bank or convenience store was actually a cop and wouldn't take the chance of robbing it, thus lowering crime..... right?

    Looking like a defenseless Hereford never stopped a coyote, but looking like a Texas Longhorn sure can.
     
  15. Well, if we're talking about Wright & Rossi's "Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms", it took only 2 days for my local library to borrow a copy for me.


    Among their findings -
    81% agreed the "smart criminal" will try to find out if a potential victim is armed.
    74% felt that burglars avoided occupied dwellings for fear of being shot.
    80% of "handgun predators" had encountered armed citizens.
    40% did not commit a specific crime for fear that the victim was armed.
    34% of "handgun predators" were scared off or shot at by armed victims.
    57% felt that the typical criminal feared being shot by citizens more than he feared being shot by police.

    And there's a CATO Institute document - available online - with useful information. Clayton Cramer and David Burnett

    Not to forget "Gun Self Defense and Deterrence" by Jens Ludwig - available online -
     
  16. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    I think some of you give thugs to much credit for being smart. I've seen plenty of video's of thugs trying to rob a place with a cop standing in line behind them. If they were that damn smart they wouldn't be doing what they do. In all my years I've never met or seen a smart thug. Maybe I don't live close enough to see all these genius crack heads and meth addicts. Most of these genius thugs have already either been arrested dozens of times or shot and killed. Try watching some of those surveillance tapes with this smart thugs in action, or watch the show COPS and see how smart these thugs really are.

    Odd how it's rationalizing if you argue for OC but it's not if you argue against it.
     
  17. gr8oldguy

    gr8oldguy New Member

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    In no way does that study indicate that those fears are due to open carry. If I was a criminal and saw a juicy looking pistol hanging on someone's belt, it would be like taking candy from a someone with a cracked skull. No gun, concealed or otherwise, is effective stopping crime. They're defensive not offensive. Trouble has already started before the intended victim has drawn their weapon. Most people make the same mistake when judging the deterrent effect of open carry. They tend to use what they think is a reasonable man assessment of a situation. "That guy is carrying a gun, I'm going to leave him alone", is the thought process. To an armed thug, gangbanger or dopehead they'll just shoot the victim in the back. Do some google searches. There are more examples of open carriers being robbed of their weapons than concealed carry folks. Good luck
     
  18. gr8oldguy

    gr8oldguy New Member

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    You see the funny ones. The ones that make "we the people" feel good. The streets are a tough place with tough people. Many of them don't care a spit about life, theirs or yours. Don't be fooled by what you see on COPS. It's edited and you see only what they want you to see. It's entertainment without the musical numbers.
     
  19. CaptMidnight

    CaptMidnight New Member Supporter

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    Why did the Boston Marathon Bombers attack and kill a unformed police officer to take his exposed handgun. Why didn't they attack and rob a plain clothed police officer with a concealed weapon??
    I bet I know. They could not find a concealed weapon. You think?? Really!!
     
  20. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    That's just common sense. Of course you are afraid to get shot by a crime victim who happens to be armed. There is nothing in the study that supports open carry. You can argue for civilian OC on constitutional grounds, but you will have a hard time proving its practical value.