Did Academy deny my wife her Constitutional rights?

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by CPage0306, May 26, 2020.

  1. CPage0306

    CPage0306 New Member

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    (Full Disclaimer) About a month ago I was denied a firearms purchase from Academy. I had purchased firearms before but never more than one at a time. I discovered due to the Ajudification on my record from years ago had been the issue. I attemped to by 3on that day and was denied because of it. No big deal. I followed the instructions, Appealed it, processed all necessary documents and mailed my FP to the FBI. Everything. Still processing. No problem.

    Now on to my next crazy issue i encountered with my wife at Academy. Need all opinions on this. Cannot find any situation similer to it anyway. Thank Y'all.

    I work in the oil field in Southern NM and stay out there for work 7 months out of the year. I have a wife and 3 daughters by themselves during that time im out. Understandably with the current economic crises combines with the "pandemic", my wife anxiety of social unrest while alone with children, she wanted to feel more secure. She decided she wanted to purchase her own firearm, she doesn't like any of mine but the shotgun. We decided to go to Academy on Memorial day. (Context) My wife has never purchased before and isn't as read in weapons as me of course.

    So we get to the display case and discuss the one she likes and wants to look at. Just then the SG clerk asks " Anything ya'll need" i respond with can we see he choice. With out any hesitation he removes the weapon and hands it over to me to inspect. I check it over, explaining as i go to my wife what to look for ext... Once were finished i hand the weapon back across to the clerk, saying " we'll take that one". He responds " Are you purchasing it, or is she? I said " no she is buying it, I wish i was mine" jokingly, He says ok.
    We walk over to the register and he busily begins grabbing thins here and there, while my wife and i discuss the process of her transaction, Form 4473 and what to expect. Anyway about ten minutes later, he returns finally with some paperwork, which i did find odd at the time due to the ipads they typically use now, and asked my wife for her Identification. She pulls out her drivers license and begins writing it all down. I looked over at the ammo around that moment, but when i turned back around he had hand her DL back i walked over to all i could assume was a Manager, and begun a discussion. Now my spidey senses are kinda begining to tingle, but i wrote it off cause my wife is a saint, only had 2 speeding tickets ever. A couple minutes later this manager walks over and states to my wife" We cannot sell you this firearm " my wife " why ", Manager " Its against FBI regulations, Your husband attempted to purchase a simulr firearm ( Not simular! My Purchase was a S&W 40, her purchase was a Lugar9mm compact) and was denied his purchase " my wife, " Yea, but Im buying this for me, its my purchase" Manager " It's FBI rules, because of this you have been flagged" My wife angrily " So i cant buy my own firearm because of him" Manager " thats correct" my wife at this point angrily storms off. Before I leave the counter I said to the manager " Funny, Cause thats not what the FBI said" half truth/not truth just as a jab for the way my wife was just treated knowing my appeal was gonna work out just fine, But left very angry by the way my wife had been treated.
    Turns out the clerk that had helped us from the begining, a 20 year old kid, had rembered me from the month before and getting denied. So of course with his great powers of assumption, and wisdom, passed judgment I was a crimal who could neither purchase or own a firarm. Ironically transforming my wife from innocent into crimanl now flagged by the FBI as a possible Straw Man Purchase Felon.

    I have gathered quitean amount of information, Regulations, Policies, and scheduled a consultation with a good lawyer about this in my opionin,disgusting, behavier knowingly allowing us to continue the purchuse steps to entrap my wife.
    I admit to my own ignorats on the Confusing Paradoxing law of Straw Man Purchases, but i think this was way out of line. Even with the recent information i have learned.
    What do you guess think, would love to hear your opionons, both negitive and positive. Thanks again
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    In a nutshell, a FFL is not required to transfer a firearm to anyone for any reason- except they may not discriminate on basis of sex, race, etc.

    While I am sure you are a straight up person, I have personally observed at least a dozen attempts of people to make a straw-man purchase. And they were very similar to yours. I understand your frustration- please understand the frustration of the dealer in having to deal with the ATF.

    I am not a lawyer, but I'm afraid an honest one is going to tell you the very same thing.
     

  3. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Private sale. No FFL stupidity to deal with.
     
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  4. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    It's how suspected "questionable" transactions go, when the government's sticky fingers are involved in a transaction. It's how it works.

    I've no idea whether it's justifiable, in this case, based on the earlier record despite adjudication/wiping, but still.

    About the only way around it: live in a state that doesn't criminalize "private" transactions between individuals, and buy/sell your arms that way. Without all the FFL and permissions-slip hassles.


    Fact is, the more skittish the government in the U.S. gets with the armed population, the more likely these sorts of denials and blocks are to occur. Irrespective of whether it's correct, or merely of legitimate concern, or completely out of "left field."

    I'm about as straight-laced and upstanding as they come, record-wise. And over the years I've had a handful of temporary denials. Can't say that I've ever made a purchase with someone else in tow, though. I've tried not to muddy those waters, as much as possible.

    That said, the handful of times I've done face-to-face, non-documented, non-FFL transactions, it's been a breeze. A bit riskier, perhaps, given the possible risks of doing a buy "out there" with an unknown person, but with reasonable precautions it's not all that different than buying a monkey wrench or ping pong paddle.

    As for constitutionality, technically the vendor had nothing to do with that. They were just following their "marching" orders from "the authorities," on this point. Wasn't their problem, and wasn't their doing. It's the intrusive Feds, with the Court giddily washing their backs for them as we take the brunt of such garbage. And, sadly, what the Court says on this point of constitutionality is what passes for law. Welcome to the modern world. A beautiful thing, is it not? o_O :mad:
     
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  5. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Well-Known Member

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    alas based on your behaviour at the gun counter, with the clerk [they were over 21] in attendance, introducing your partner to the world of SD firearms at the led them to the correct conclusion -- the firearm was for you!

    as c3shooter correctly pointed out, an FFL has no obligation to transfer a firearm to anyone, especially if they believe the possibly exists the sale could be a "strawman" [someone buying a firearm under the pretense the firearm is for themselves but is actually for someone else.]

    stepping back to your statement "i've purchased before...but never more than one at a time..."

    so you were you attempting to purchase just 3 firearms [pistols? rifles? shotguns?] when you were denied?

    you mentioned you were denied and you believe you submitted appropriate clarification documents a month ago...sorry with the pandemic and some/all adjudication folks sick or folks furloughed to home, the ATF and local LEs are overwhelmed trying to clear up the denials [basically the ATF has stopped as they are experiencing massive manpower shortages themselves!] your "adjudication" won't happen in quite awhile!

    contact an attorney to see where your judicial might lie!

    do not blame the store cuz i'm fraid your zeal at the counter caused them to refuse your getting your new firearm!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  6. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Well-Known Member

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    Section 30-7-7.1. Unlawful sale of a firearm without a background check.
    A. Unlawful sale of a firearm without a background check consists of the sale of a firearm without conducting a federal
    instant background check subject to the following:

    (1) if the buyer of a firearm is not a natural person, then each natural person who is authorized by the buyer to possess the firearm after the sale shall undergo a federal instant background check before taking possession of the firearm;

    (2) a prospective firearm seller who does not hold a current and valid federal firearms license issued pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 923(a) shall arrange for a person who does hold that license to conduct the federal instant background check. A federal firearms licensee shall not unreasonably refuse to perform a background check pursuant to this paragraph; and

    (3) a person who holds a current and valid federal firearms license issued pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 923(a) may charge a fee not to exceed thirty-five dollars ($35.00) for conducting a background check pursuant to this section.
     
  7. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    And there's the whole problem with liberties doled out by permission only.

    Indeed, it could come to the point where every seller would recognize the possibility of the products ending up elsewhere, or where the gov't dictates that all sellers should recognize the possibility and tighten the screws.

    Let alone the instances of the system "being down" and the ATF not playing by the supposed rules Congress set up, etc.
     
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  8. ellis36

    ellis36 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Especially when persons with dictatorial tendencies seem to always gravitate to positions of authority.

    ellis
     
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  9. tinbucket

    tinbucket Well-Known Member

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    You experienced what Bloomberg and the Antis have been trying to accomplish...to make decisions on denying your rights with no basis in Law. I would contact the ATF or go down to the FBI office with documents in hand and get that end cleared up quickly if you can. Maybe your Congressman depending... As to them rejecting your purchase on their own authority go somewhere else...or buy from an individual if you find someone with the firearm your wife wants. I am assuming everybody is above board here. Until we get rid of GCA68 or the Court asserts 2A, which seems to grow more remote with Kavanugh no n the Court, we will be faed with Bloomberg's billions destroying our Rights.
     
  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    1. I smell a troll post.

    2. Academy is a private business they can deny you a sale because your breath stinks.

    3. The last 3 times my wife bought a gun we went to the LGS together and I turned her over to the counter guy or owner and walked away. A couple of times I even went next door to my favorite bookstore. I come back a half hour or so later and she's either doing or done with her paperwork.

    We've never had a problem.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  11. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I forgot NM had went commie.

    So while NM criminals get guns whenever they wish, the posters wife RTKABA is abolished by an unconstitutional act passed by congress decades ago.
     
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  12. PaBushMan

    PaBushMan Well-Known Member

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    Just someone trying to circumvent the law IM0.
     
  13. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    That law was passed by politicians circumventing the law in order to pass it.
    Cant break a law illegally passed.
    The 2a has no if, buts or unless blah blah blah in it
     
  14. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is it even close to a straw purchase? She could purchase the firearm for him as a gift, and it's perfectly legal.

    I don't know how big academy is, but I stopped dealing with big box stores, only going to a small B&M store has made purchasing a much more enjoyable process
     
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  15. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    ^ This.

    Basically, a shop clerk or owner can get a "feeling" and that's pretty much it. Denied, for supposed "cause."

    The main reason I despise the permission-slip approach to doling out liberties. It can be "massaged" or abused extremely easily. And it does not serve the citizens, not when it's so pitifully easy for felons to acquire all the tools they need elsewhere, outside of "the system." This is merely a systematic method of denying upstanding people, something that's not really intended for them and won't really stop violent types from acquisitions anyway.
     
  16. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Well-Known Member

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    possible dialogue with clerk in attendance...

    honey, remember this is the one i talked to you about...

    but i can't hold hold it tight...

    oh you'll get used to it with practice...

    will it kick much....

    no dear...

    but i think i like the other smaller weapon the clerk showed me...

    no dear, remember we talked about this at home...REMEMBER
    D E A R...!!!

    as for strawman...the 4473 the customer signs as they unequivocally state they are the buyer!
    gifting is the ATF paradox of firearm purchase for "someone" else and ATF's standard guidance is to get a $$$ prepaid card for the individual to seek out what they want and complete the 4473 appropriately as well as endure the bkgnd ck!
     
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  17. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Not that we want to get too personal but why do you think you were you denied?

    I am certainly not saying you are or were! But if a Felony or Serious Misdemeanor is on a persons record. A dealer or clerk having knowledge of such would automatically make it illegal to know that and sell it to any individual. Being a wife or any household member living there. Because they are not to have a weapon or any "access" in the home or other location. Even if someone there owns the weapon.
    And an FFL Dealer has the legal right to refuse to sell a weapon to an individual that there is some element of caution or doubt about. This by Federal Law!

    03
     
  18. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Well-Known Member

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    uh, er, sniper03...me thinks you are questioning the wind...just an observation, ya know...
     
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  19. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Federal overreach you mean.

    Cant say about all regions but in my neck of the woods a dealer who does more than the required infringements to sell a gun, isn't a gun dealer for long for lack of customers.
     
  20. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    I ask a simple inquiry! Maybe to make sense of the wife's denial!
    It is logical and makes all the sense in the world.
    If you do not like it Stuff It!;)
    And for the Federal Firearms Licensed Dealer the Law is the Law unless they want to go to Federal Prison. I know of a dealer that violated the laws and served 5 years in a Federal Penitentiary. And he was a good family man! But messed up!

    03