Defensive shooting classes/training

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Greebo, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    Ok, here’s what I don’t get as far as the whole CCW and defensive shooting goes – where are all the classes? I understand that there are plenty of CCW classes (I’ve completed one, it cost $175 for an 8hr class…but that’s not what I’m talking about) and plenty of ranges to practice shooting in a relaxed environment without any distractions at an unmoving piece of paper.

    What I think there is a massive need for is some sort of training center, lets be honest here, this country really needs places to teach ppl to shoot, not to fire a gun, but to asses and shoot with deadly force – example, I use to box, I didn’t need to learn how to swing a punch, I already new that, what I needed to learn was how to place my punches with power, accuracy and speed in high stress situations with lights, noise and onlookers causing distractions. Now if I wanted to do that, or Karate or anything similar I would have no end of places to go for classes of 1-2 hr lessons a couple of times a week, resulting, eventually in a highly trained fighter/boxer.

    On that note, the govt has given me a license to carry a concealed firearm, touch wood n all that, but what if I have to use it? I’m not military or LE and only have less than a years worth of experience with firearms, so now you have a civilian with little to no experience in a high pressure situation with a loaded gun…Awesome! Now I’m not belittling anyone’s (or my own) experience here or skill with a gun at a range (but range V real life deadly situation), anyone who has ever boxed or even been in a fight will tell you there is a world of difference between hitting a bag and standing up to someone who’s swinging at you and trying to hurt you, training helps you to deal with that and to survive if not win such an encounter.

    So where are courses/classes, something that can be reasonably joined – not $100 –$200 daily courses but something ppl can go to once/twice a week to build up the training & expertise needed to deal and survive such an encounter?

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    We have a ton of trainers and training sites here in GA and the classes range from basic to really advanced (as do the prices). I'm sure there are some in your area as well - just have to search them out...
     

  3. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    Aye, aye there are quite a few like that, my local range has a few everything from introduction (2-3hrs $85) up to advanced pistol III (7hrs $155), but this is not what I am talking about. For example, if I want to become a skilled boxer, whose body will react immediately to a threat it is not 1 8hr class I would need to take, like wise military and LE and not just given 1 class and expected to know it all, for full proficiency I think we need something that will continue to instruct on a weekly basis allowing muscle memory to set in and skill levels to increase. Unfortunately it's the one area where people are pretty much left to fend for themselves taking classes when they are available or can afford them.

    I was lucky enough to have an ex-military instructor give me a brief introduction into defensive shooting and what that entails, and just judging from that alone I realized that while the range is helping me in my long shot accuracy, this will not aid me in a personal defense situation, the speed, distance and style of shooting are all completely different to everything I had practiced at the range so far. We would all like to believe we are ready for an aggressor and would be fully capable of defending ourselves and loved ones in that event but training is better then belief....does that make sense?
     
  4. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    The trainers here offer many types of defensive handgun courses which are much more than just shooting at paper targets. Some of them are 3 day affairs where you shoot from 1500 rounds and up...
     
  5. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    I don't doubt that...nor do I doubt the advantages of taking such a course, which I am sure does not come cheap, and being 3 days would prob require at least one day off work, increasing the overall cost of the course, so still not what I am talking about.
     
  6. CatalinaCruiser

    CatalinaCruiser New Member

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    Executive Protection in Irvine, CA and Front Sight

    I’m looking for some other people to take a class from David Acosta, a world respected executive protection specialist/operative. He has an introductory class (20 hours from 6pm to ~10pm Mon-Fri) he’s willing to run in the Irvine area.

    It’s packed with great info including the basics of surveillance, counter surveillance, tracking, CQB, etc. I was able to sit in on one class; the info was great but we had a lot of fun, too (real James Bond type stuff that promote a definite skill set in personal protection). The intro class gets you set for the full academy training (~160hrs for full EP certification where you can start booking jobs).

    Anyone who signs up with me I’ll also take to Front Sight for their 4-Day Defensive Handgun course for free near Las Vegas.
     
  7. FreedomFighter69

    FreedomFighter69 New Member

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    If you have Ten Years of firearms experience then you're more than qualified !
    Heck, you can become very good in less than a year with practice. The objective is to practice so you can control your weapon and actually hit what your shooting at. If you can do those two things, your good to go ! Also knowing how to safely carry a gun is required too but that's the only part that comes the more you do it. If you know how to load, use the safety when you carry, conceal reasonably, shoot, control, break-down, and clean and re-assemble your gun that's all the basics you need to know. Going further into action shooting or scenario shooting much like law enforcement does, really isin't required by citizen who may have to use their firearm once in their lifetime.
    Yes there are going to be exceptions but how many citizen who carry concealed do you know have had to use their weapon more than three times ?
     
  8. masterPsmith

    masterPsmith New Member

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    Greebo,
    It looks to me that you are looking for a long time trainer or training center like going to school on a regular basis. You won't find one !!!
    What you need to do is take this responsibility on yourself. If you need to, go to a facility such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or others for a 4 or 5 day course. Once you finish, take what you have learned and incorporate it into your weekly or daily practice sessons. Change-up what you do in practice so it is not so repetitive. If you carry, it is "your" responsibility alone, to practice and train to become and remain proficient. I don't get out to practice as much as I would like due do financial concerns, but when I do go out for serious practice, it is usually a 500 round session, minimum. Take on the responsibility yourself and run with it...................


    Jim..............
     
  9. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    Remarkable, I have to admit, I'm amazed at the reactions from most people, here and in real life...I get the same answers from my local gun range and even the couple of military instructors I've met. There is no one to train you, no where to go to train you but it's your responsibility to train yourself...and no one sees the problem with that?

    forget it...I'm just going to walk away from this thread, it's just getting repetitive and silly to be honest.

    I do thank you all for your time, input and answers
     
  10. CatalinaCruiser

    CatalinaCruiser New Member

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    Exec Protection

    I know you have to be able to shoot to be an EP Professional but it's more important to know how to avoid situations that would draw you into a gunfight. That's what the training is really all about. EPs don't look to engage enemies and take down attackers. They exfil, protect their primary and call the cops. It's more about having good intel, a solid plan and then knowing when to bug out when the plan goes south.

    And I do go to Front Sight for firearms training at least once every 2 months or so. Exclusivley personal training tends to engrain bad habits by driving out the good. Forcing yourself to get out and actually face scenarios that have you scratching your head initially are critical to being able to survive a real deadly encounter.

    A good example was when Dave took me to a training exercise he'd set up with several local PDs and SWAT groups in a school. We were running a Beslan-like scenario and set those poor police officers up. They train for single shooters - hear a shot and converge. So I sat on the second floor (to their right) looking down on the door and the police coming in. We had one guy fire at them on entry from the first floor, off to their left. The entire group wheeled and started firing at him (he was already halfway up the stairs). I opened up on full auto at 35 yds (we were shooting blanks). Most of them would have been severely injured or died had that been real.

    You have to do the personal study but training with a group and with someone who will challenge what you think you know is the only way to find new levels of capability and understanding.
     
  11. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    Exactly what I asked for in my original post, the mere mention of that type of question seems to have brought on a lot of negative emotions...ppl replying to me stating I have to be trained and have to train but how dare I look for a class, or training group for coaching and assistance, much the same way a personal defence class is run...but to be honest I am not going to bring all that back up again,...I would be interested in hearing more about the EP training you have done and what not...E-mail or PM me, give me all the info :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2010
  12. GLS

    GLS New Member

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    If you live in So. Cal. take a look a Tacfire. They offer beginning and advanced pistol practice twice per month.
     
  13. Fred007

    Fred007 New Member

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    I read your post with interest as I have the same question. However, I had the pleasure of taking the 250 course at Gunsite back in 1981 when Col. Cooper taught it himself. A wonderful combination of firearm training, basic drills, simulations and most importantly mental conditioning. I went on to take a more advanced course for a total of 8 days training on this subject. I am now searching for similar training for my 15yr old and am not finding much other than Thunder Ranch (booked solid for 2011) and Gunsite. So, it looks like we will find the time/money and book a trip to AZ for a week. Based on my experience, the total immersion at Gunsite for 5 days was totally worth it.

    As a side note, there were all kinds of experience levels in the class and the improvements made by all the students was impressive. In the second class I took, I was clearly the "weakest link" but benefited by all the impressive LE and Military folks in the class. Sorry I could not help more than this, but the 250 class at Gunsite would proably give you the solid foundation you are searching for, and really help with the process should you ever need to use this training.
     
  14. locnload

    locnload Member

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    Greebo; I had never really thought of it that way but you have a good point. Most of us would love to go to Thunder Ranch, Gunsight, or Frontsight, but its exspensive and even if we can go, most of us can't afford to do it over and over again. Say for example, you take your initial CCW class, 8-10 hours of emersion in the basics. You get your cert, send off for your permit, then continue with short evening classes, maybe 2 hours every week or two. The instructor has a lesson plan each time where he demos a new skill, a liitle classroom, a little range time, and you just continually build your skillsets. Thats basicaly how we train our volunteer firefighters. We get them through an orientation, teach them where things are and enough to keep them from getting themselves or one of us hurt, then we continue to build their knowledge with 2 or 3 hour classes on weeknights or Saturdays. Eventually we will put them through a full fire accademy, but meanwhile they are learning and becoming good firefighters. And when they do get to go through the accademy, they find it much easier, and develope their skills far better.
    This is a great idea and I'm going to talk to some local trainers I know to see if they think it could fly. I hope you will do the same there. :cool:
     
  15. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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  16. CatalinaCruiser

    CatalinaCruiser New Member

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    The key is regular training with dry practice to reinforce the details of what was learned in training. I take an advanced tactics course from Front Sight every 6 months or so. It's 2 days of scenario training where you're out of the square range mentality, in simulators, homes, at ATMS, in cars, etc. But you need a membership to reduce that cost (you can pick up the all inclusive memberships for $1000 or so). Then it's just travel time, hotels and ammo. But you do that a couple times a year and it's not bad.

    Then you reinforce that training with consistent dry practice several times a week. The thing that's critical, though, is to get some range time otherwise your body goes back to the bad habits when the gun starts to go bang. Dry practice is critical but you need some actual firing once a week or every 2 weeks.

    And if you really want some serious training, take the Advanced Scenarios class at Front Sight where you go force on force with Glock 17s and simunitions. That's about as real as you can get without going to the hospital.

    This will create that muscle memory. And the regular training in scenarios (NOT running a square range against static paper) will ensure the accuracy and tactics don't break apart in a real situation. You can do a tactical reload after every shot on a range but when you're in a scenario, you'd be surprised to see how few people actually think to do that.
     
  17. octalman

    octalman New Member

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    Greebo, you may have moved on. Sorry, I read this thread three times and do not understand what you are looking for. All the answers were good and covered a wide range of options for you to investigate and find a match to your requirements. There is no perfect answer.
     
  18. Greebo

    Greebo New Member

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    Octalman, tell me this, how often do you train with your firearms? How often do you spend the hundreds of dollars needed for the big classes? Alternatively I don't just mean standing at a range and calmly going through a box or 2 of ammo but how often do you have an instructor go through drills, situation awareness, defensive tactics - both in home, car and on the street, or drill defensive responses for when your in trouble alone versus when you will need to defend some one else?

    Instructors talk a lot about muscle memory and drilling something into both your body and mind until it becomes your first response regardless of the stress levels around you, something which only happens if it is practised all the time. Imagine if there was a small class that you could go to every couple of weeks.

    Now imagine a range that has an instructor available that will take a group of ppl for a couple of hours every 2 weeks and drills them in all of the above, allowing muscle memory to fully set in, to smooth off any rough edges or bad habits. I am not talking about any of the big advanced level pistol classes (nothing against them it's just that not everyone has +$100 and 8hours to spend every couple of weeks), but on the other hand if there was an instructor available to take 10 ppl at say $50 (my pistol range allows 10 at a time, if yours holds more, increase the number), you enrol in the class, you go twice a month, lets say for 90mins to 2 hours and the class begins with drills been shown and you practice them, instructor walks back n forth stopping and re-showing anyone doing it wrong etc....class ends with a talk on situation awareness and maybe homework - before next class practice 'blah' etc. - works on the same basic principal as a boxing instructor, or possibly like a golf pro at a driving range who's job it is to keep an eye on a group of ppl and let them know when they notice something wrong (stance, grip etc).

    Now, you state all of the answers were covered, they were not....a lot of ppl either told me such a thing does not exist (which I already know) or told me that there were many advanced level courses from 8hrs to 5 days available costing probably into the thousands when combined with the money lost from taking time off work (which I am also aware of). People got defensive, angry and scared when I spoke about my belief that maybe it would be a good idea to offer some form of small constant training.

    I hope this helps to clarify my original post.
     
  19. DrJason

    DrJason New Member

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    I just read thru all the posts, I don't think anyone here was getting "defensive, angry or scared".....simple fact is, what you are talking about doesn't exist, I don't think its a bad idea, however I also don't see it as working out to be a sound business plan either as I don't think there is a large enough customer pool to support the cost of running it.....if you disagree I challenge you to prove me wrong.

    Till then, I will echo what others have said, take as many courses as you can and then practice practice practice what you have learned both dry and live.
     
  20. octalman

    octalman New Member

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    Greebo,

    Thanks for the additional information and clarification. I too have been looking for routine and advanced training. There are at least 6 facilities in my region that offer basic, intermediate, and advanced training. Each facility also offers 1 on 1 or small group custom training. The instructors have either LEO, NRA, or Military experience. There are other facilities I would say lean toward the more advanced training such as Frontsight, High Caliber Training, and Tac-Pro.

    Over the years, watching and talking with skilled shooters has been valuable. They usually can provide insight or suggestions that make a big difference. Soak up as much knowledge from them as possible.

    Even with 30+ years of shooting, still plan on more training. Right now trying to decide which advanced class fits my needs and schedule. My research indicates that resources at all levels are available for advanced classes, small group training, or 1 on 1. As others have said - practice, practice, practice. Don't claim to know it all, but do know enough to practice on my own and improve.