Defense Strategy needed

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by Fireleg, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. Fireleg

    Fireleg New Member

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    Hello everyone!

    I have a problem and need advice! This is the situation:

    I am a European and live in South India on a remote farm. Recently there have been raids on farms by gangs not really closeby but not really far away either. I get worried and need a defense strategy.

    The site:

    Small remote farm, no neighbours, surrounded by fence, guarded by sleepy dogs, two cowardly employees. Small houses with windows of bars, not glass (means: open, wind comes through, insects also if I remove the moskito net).

    The attackers:

    10-15 gangmembers, armed, but no firearms, ready to be cruel, but not brave (!)

    The attack:

    Dead of night, cut electricity, poison the dogs, come through the roof or smoke out the people with molotov cocktails or catch them sleeping. Victims always die. If victims seem too resilient, they seal doors and windows and burn the main building while looting the rest of the estate. The defendants would most likely fight inside the house, trying to keep the attackers out and the outside attackers under stress.

    Defensive Means:

    9-1-1 took 6 minutes last time (luckily no robbers!) to even understand what I needed and where the farm is. And then 35 minutes to get 2 sleepy unarmed uninformed unequipped cops to show up and give me a hassle for calling instead of helping.

    Real firearms not allowed and nowhere to get.

    All kinds of airguns and CS sprays available.

    For the last years I had a crossbow from Europe, thinking I would have to deal with one or two attackers. But I cannot shot 15 people with a crossbow. Besides it broke last monsoon.

    My idea is to get some kind of CO2 pistol with lots of shots (reloading in the dark, coughing from smoke and under fire is not a good idea), and maybe a mixed ammo, like 1 bang then 1 CS gas, then 1 projectile. This because: fighting is indoors and through the windows; I don't have time to reload; I need CS for outside (through the window bars), bang to scare them (they are usually nowhere near as bold as europeans and americans) and a projectile to really hurt someone who dangles from the roof to come in.

    Is this a good idea?

    Which weapon to get?

    Which caliber?

    Any suggestions?


    Thanks!

    Fireleg

    :eek:
     
  2. red ryder

    red ryder New Member

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    you ever see that dustin hoffman movie "straw dogs"?

    bear traps work well.
     

  3. Fireleg

    Fireleg New Member

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    Movie and reality...

    No, didn't see it.

    But I can't turn my farm into a fortress, because we live here and don't know if and when there would be an attack. If you know they are coming tonight you can put traps all over the place, but if they come in eight months? Then the traps kill your dogs, the gardener and your cousin.

    Also you would need to know exactly where they will climb the fence and how they approach the buildings.
     
  4. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Can you not buy a bow & some arrows? If i couldn't have a gun and would be dealing with multiple murderous burglars, i would want a bow. If you cannot buy one, would it be illegal to make one?

    When you say you cannot have firearms, what about black powder guns, what about ammunition for a shotgun? What about an agricultural flame thrower running from a propane tank? Perhaps some sprayable agricultural poisons could be put to use in your defense? I would rather be shot by an average air rifle than pelted by a marble from a modern slingshot http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/60598-1.html .

    Have you considered relocating to someplace more hospitable? (seriously, not trying to be an ***)

    This question seems very odd, almost contrived; no offense, i'm just glad our gun laws aren't that bad.

    http://www.flameengineering.com/Red_Dragon_Propane_Torch_K.html agricultural flame thrower. This doesn't have huge range or anything, but would scare the bejezus out of me.

    edit* Of course, you should abide by the laws of your area to the best of your ability while acting only in defense.

    You might also consider a good used "gas mask" to help you continue to see, breathe, & fight during smoke or gassy conditions. http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net...gas-masks-or-replacement-filter.aspx?a=414701 You will need some advice from a former military person before assuming this would be fully effective.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  5. Fireleg

    Fireleg New Member

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    Bows and stuff

    Well, I had a crossbow and even that was quite hard to use. I might get a bow just for backup but that would only take care of people outside, not of people in my room.

    I need something for close quarters.

    The "no guns thing": they are not legal and as a foreigner I would put my visa at stake and thereby all my possessions.

    You cannot transfer money out of India like you can out of Europe or USA, so selling and relocating isn't that easy. Besides, if you lived somewhere for quite long you wouldn't leave unless there is a clear and present danger, which is not the case (yet) with these raids. It is just that I want to be prepared if it hits me one night.

    flamethrower: that sounds like a dangerous thing to have around and even more having it stand beside your bed. Sometimes we have children playing here and the maid cleaning and such. I don't think I could stand the constant worry about this object.

    gas mask... are there easy-on gas masks? It sounds like a good thing to wear but a bad thing to put on in the middle of an ongoing attack. I'd probably rather grab a weapon.

    Slingshot: I'll get one. Good idea. But doesn't solve all the problems. Consider the number of attackers: it might force me to take on two or more within seconds after a door breaks.

    About contriving: it doesn't sound so odd to me. But I don't take it as an offense. I've heard raiding stories like mine from a couple of countries so far (especially africa). Things like this are only unusual in industrialized countries. But I am being unfair to India also. It's not like there is a raided farm every week. I would still consider it relatively safe. There are other countries where it would be impossible to own a remote farm without firearms and guards. Here it is possible, but I just don't have that inschalllah attitude to just wait for desaster to knock on my door. I want to be prepared.

    I asked this question here for a large part, because I have zero gun experience. I would be happy if someone would elaborate a little on things like type of gun, type of ammo, caliber to use, if it is possible to mix ammo so I can have different types alternating without reloading and so on.
     
  6. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    So basically, you need a close-quarters defense that doesn't involve a firearm? How are you with a machete? Have you considered some martial arts training? Would a squirt gun full of agricultural poison seem too hazardous (gloves & eye protection a must)? I am certain you could have a more permanent impact with agricultural chemicals than with pepper spray.

    I cannot advise you on airguns, as i am not familiar enough with them to know which ones would actually disable an attacker.

    Have you inquired of a local attorney as to the legality of blackpowder firearms? They can be quite deadly and loud from what i've seen. I would be surprised if flare guns are illegal; that could be a serious deterrent http://www.firequest.com/catalog/FJ71100_MoreInfo.html .

    Personally (not to reflect on this forum's management or any other members) i would be more concerned with my life than with my visa. I wish you the very best of luck.

    edit* I understand the courts in India are VERY backed up, perhaps you should consider some surveillance systems to capture video evidence for prosecution of these bandits. Electronic surveillance can also be used in conjunction with motion detectors or perimiter alarms that emit confusingly bright lights, piercing sirens, and i've heard that some can activate pepper spray (i've only seen pepper spray for specialty car alarms).
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  7. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    You WILL need something for early warning- the sooner you are alerted to an invasion, the better you can respond. Waiting until they aer inside of your dwelling means you have lost all advantage.

    The "paintball" gun is typically a CO2 .69 caliber gun, firing marble sized pellets. They are non-lethal, but are available in CS as well as marking paint. If you are planning to use CS, you should have a gas mask for yourself.

    If you local laws permit, DO look at black powder muzzleloading arms. Note the plural form I just used. While they CAN be reloaded fairly quickly. having more than one ups the rate of fire nicely- especially if you have a designated loader to help. A smoothbore shotgun loaded with buckshot (lead pellets about 8mm in diameter) is a very effective means of dealing with thugs at close range- 25 yards or less.

    DO also consider first aid fire fighting capabilities- and since you seem to be "on yer own, mate"- are there neighbors that you can enter into a mutual aid agreement with? I'll come help you if you will come help me?

    A bow with broadhead arrows can be quite deadly- and has a higher rate of fire than a crossbow. Worked for his Majesty's boys for years. Does require practice, and the willingness to use it.

    A flare gun can be very useful, and is generally not regulated as a weapon. You will want light on the far side of attackers to illuminate your targets.

    For those that want to get close and personal, the Gurkhas have had the solution for some time- Khukuri Palace - New Official khukuri,khukri,kukri supplier to British Gurkha Army,The Real Blade Of Gurkhas

    BTW, soap (not detergent- SOAP- such as Ivory Flakes) when added to gasoline makes gas sticky, and burn slower.
     
  8. red ryder

    red ryder New Member

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    i have a air rifle that i could load with hunting darts. i would say they had close to as much penetration as a .22

    if you were a skilled shot with that you could potentially put someone down with that.
     
  9. skullcrusher

    skullcrusher New Member

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    If I were in your situation, I would look at all legal means. I thought of homemade cannons (pvc pipe) that you could launch glass or some kind of shrapnel using expanding gasses. Hair spray when ignighted expands rapidly. Just some other thoughts...
     
  10. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    Obtain a standard bow and arrow (you can hit out to 40 yards with a moderate amount of practice). Ensure you have a quiver that will hold a decent amount of arrows. Set up a backstop (with hay or other like materials), and practice daily.

    Also, practice with edged weapons. Long and short knives are extremely deadly if you use them right. You cut the right artery, and the attacker will be unconsious within seconds and dead within a minute. Practice whenever you have spare time.

    You will be surprised at how quickly you can loose a volley of accurate arrows after you practice, and you will also be surprised at how effective a knife is when you use it on the right areas of the body (attack the arms first - preferrably the arm with the weapon, then attack the vitals).

    Also, learn to fight with your hands, and concentrate on executing good vascular chokes. A vascular choke can be applied many different ways from many different positions/situations. A good vascular(blood) choke will render an attacker unconsious in about 4 seconds, and is the most effective and efficent way to end a fight and move on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  11. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    Is it legal to have containers of petroleum products located around your property? Google "Foo Gas", and use your imagination.
     
  12. Fireleg

    Fireleg New Member

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    Thanks for the many hints!

    So I will get a slingshot, a bow, a mean knife. And practice.

    Then I will inquire about blackpowder guns, but I am not too optimistic. I live in a country where the standard police weapon is a wooden stick. So blackpowder guns are not historic but futuristic to the police. :)

    Though foo gas, cannons, flamethrowers, bear traps and the like capture my imagination, I can really not use them in my bedroom and in a garden, where children and dogs run around. The worry would kill me before any robbers show up. (They would have to retrain to be grave robbers. :D ).

    Unfortunately the attackers are not brave. Which means there will most likely not be a "fair" situation. They know they have a lot of time on their hands and have in the past rather been burning the whole complex than engaging defensive inhabitants. Because of this I view Karate and such as a mere backup. If they enter, they will come with force and in large numbers. Besides I am a lousy sportsman due to an illness past.

    I have tried electronic means (movement detectors, sound detectors, video) in the past for finding out who stole the chickens. But it didn't work. The incredible animal life down here gives constant false alarms. Huge fruit bats flying near motion detectors, all kinds of "things" make horrible noises at night, and when it gets dark, it really gets dark. Besides: this is rather expensive as I would need a hidden alternative power source for this equipment because these gangs cut powerlines.

    I'll get a fireextinguisher. Good idea.

    I will try to get a flare gun. Also good idea. But what about the other available ammo for CO2 guns? Doesn't that do anything? No matter which caliber?

    I'll get some smoke grenades (I saw on one of your links) if they can be had in India. And I will create a hidden exit door in the back of the main house. Then I can throw smoke and then escape.
     
  13. Flint Rock

    Flint Rock New Member

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    How about a full auto airsoft gun? True it's not lethal, but for a lightly dressed person at room ranges it would be very painful. I don't think I could stand up to someone if I was being sprayed with 6mm pellets at 350+ fps. Some of the electric (battery) guns hold 200-300 pellets and can spray them out at a fairly high rate. I have seen airsoft guns that were copies of everything from revolvers to light machine guns (actually I've seen an airsoft minigun on Youtube). Just a thought, airsoftatlanta.com
     
  14. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    Hire a few more people and arm them with long knives, baseball bats, cross bows or spears? I have a realitive living in India, he's not so rual but is able to own firearms, he isn't a native either. Sounds like most advice give was not in favor, If you can't defend your and yours the best advice is to move.

    If your money is honest you can transfer it to anywhere in the world. You have internet access so it should be easy to move your money. No glass in the windows but you have internet access? Sounds remote but can't be that far out if you have internet access. No offensse but I think your playing.

    If your not a native where is it you come from?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  15. Franciscomv

    Franciscomv New Member

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    WDB, I've worked at some pretty remote places and we still had internet access through satellite services or modems that worked using mobile phone signals. But I do agree with you that this sounds a bit fishy.

    To the original poster: the gun laws in India are pretty bad, this isn't new, it started with Lord Lytton's Indian Arms Act in 1878 (which was part of the actions taken to prevent a new revolt like that of 1857). The more modern acts of 1959 and 1962, while they are still VERY restrictive when compared to other countries, do give you some options to legally acquire guns.

    For instance, you can get a license if you belong to a skeet shooting club. They use shotguns to shoot skeet, which incidentally would work really well against multiple attackers. And guess what? According to the 1959 act, shotguns are legal (there's a barrel length minimum, but that's fine).

    There's also a provision in the law for guns used for crop and farm animal protection. This might work even better for you.

    I'm not Indian, and I'm not a lawyer (I'm a historian/anthropologist, that's the only reason why I've got some idea of the law down there). In my humble opinion, you need to talk to a good lawyer who really knows the local gun laws and just get a bloody shotgun or three.

    The kind of raid you're describing seems dangerous as hell. As much as I love my longbow, I'd feel much better with my Remington 870 in such a situation.

    Oh, and if getting a permit as a foreigner is imposible, get one for one of your employees. Or check to see if you can bring in weapons from wherever you're from (in most countries you can do this, at least for sporting use).
     
  16. Fireleg

    Fireleg New Member

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    Thanks again!

    Ok, autoairsoft.. that means some kind of paintball gun?

    It was my initial idea, that a lot of little stings would be sufficient. But the problem I see now is, that the more I shoot with such a rifle, the less power the bullets have. And what might be enough against one or two attackers might prove too little against 10 or 15.

    @wdb: If I had the money I would simply have hired some guards and not asked these questions. I am not broke but certainly not rich enough to hire people that sit around until some remote night. Besides I think that it is quite difficult to find someone in India who will put his life on the line for some rupees. I think it was in 2002 when I read in a national newspaper (of India) that a group of bandits had assaulted the prime ministers garden and stole some plant. That would have been curious enough, but it went on to say that his house was in a tightly controlled area and his mansion had guards with automatic weapons. When asked why the guards fled, the head of security said "the attackers were armed!". I don't need guards who take the money when the sun shines and run during an attack.

    Concerning money: you may transfer money alright, but you will encounter consequences later if this was not done in the right fashion. There is tax in both countries, there is capital movement control. If I can't prove where I have it from in India my home state in Europe will charge me almost half of it in income tax. And most of my money is in the farm which is a company. My lawyer says it is difficult at the least. Actually what is most different from Europe is the missing information. In Europe I was used to just buy a book on the subject and somehow be informed but everytime I tried that in India I found it to be outdated, not referring to my area, not including important dimensions of the problem and so on.

    About glass windows: I didn't refer this info to make anyone think I was poor, but to make them accurately judge the situation. Our glass windows are not "missing". When we built the premises we had to decide wether we wanted sealed off buildings with air conditioning or rather local style houses with an open architecture so that wind will flow through the buildings. The latter was our choice and it turned out to be a very good one, talking about comfort and feeling like a part of nature.

    @francis: My lawyer told me no about guns, but I will inquire of him the things you mentioned, especially the part about farm guns. He lives in the city, maybe he just didn't think of that. Great hint! Thank you! About giving guns to my servants: no, really. People who regularly have a fit and hit their women and children should not have a shotgun while I don't. And doing something fishy (gun in my hand, licensed to them) would open up the road for blackmail and stuff. About importing: no way. In my own country you almost can't get a supersoaker without hassle.
     
  17. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    I might come off as the expected American but if you can't protect you and yours and you live in an area as you described taking a tax hit on your funds is a small thing compared to your life and that of your family. You can always make more money but you can't replace your life or that of a family member. It doesn't sound like your trapped and don't have means to leave the area. Sounds like you risk you and yours to maintain the lifestyle you enjoy.

    Everything you expressed screams get out. Every option provided you reasoned away. Best I can offer is become a martial arts master yesterday and teach ninja skills to your family. Or hide in the corner with a sharp stick.

    You understand the threat, you know your limitations for defense. Clearly logic doesn't work for you or you are over playing the conditions. Either way I can't offer any more advise.
     
  18. Safetyguy

    Safetyguy New Member

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    Move back to Europe. Not trying to be funny here. Just understand in America we have personal assault rifles with big clips. SemiAuto pistols, oh and the right to use them.

    Come on over!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  19. aug0211

    aug0211 New Member

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    I sort of agree with the last couple of posts, it seems like there is no answer to your situation... it makes me appreciate my right to bare arms here in America. I really wish you were able to exercise that same right.

    You might look into a "potato gun," something another poster mentioned on page 1. I made one when I was 18 or so with a buddy of mine. A couple of US dollars in PVC piping, some glue, a few cans of hair spray, and a grill lighter or some sort of spark source and you're good to go. Make 10-15 of them (seriously) and hide them around the house. They're around the size of a rifle, so you'll have to think about where to hide them, and store them with "ammo" in them. They're not all that accurate from far distances, but if you get a shot from 15 feet or so, you're likely to make contact. Pick a good ammo source (you can seriously pick almost anything), load up, and place them around your house. They're cheap to make, cheap to load, and easy to fire. You'll need to practice a lot, so that you get down the exact amount of spray to fill with, and how to shoot effectively and accurately, but you should practice a lot with any weapon anyway.

    Also, get a few flares and shoot them off so the light the opposite side of the attackers, as someone else mentioned, so that you can see the attackers.

    Of course, the best idea has been your own: build a hidden exit from the house at the back, and take everyone out that door. Carry one of the potato guns loaded with you, and anyone else you trust to fire one (seriously, they're easy to use and they don't go off accidentally - young kids here make them!). While they probably won't kill anyone, they make decent noise (to scare), and if you encounter a small group of the guys together (say, blocking your exit way), you and your partner(s) could fire 2 or 3 shots total at the intruders, hit them in the chest, and definitely knock them back enough to stun them and let you over take them.

    Hope this helps...
     
  20. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    That really does not surprise me that guards in some countries are cowardly. Bravery comes from freedom, freedom comes from bravery. People that have been subjucated for generations are not known for their fortitude. India, Pakistan, many African countries, France...not known for their widespread acts of defiance and bravery.