Defense Pistol Competition?

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by danf_fl, May 31, 2013.

  1. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Okay, after reading the rules of IDPA, I don't believe that is the discipline I am looking for. It comes close, but there are too many restrictions.

    1. My Browning Hi-Power clone cannot shoot in the Stock Service Pistol (even though it was a stock service pistol in Argentina.) (See IDPA Introduction)

    2. When one is talking about Self-Defense, there are no "revolver neutral" breaks given by the bad guys. (CoF22)

    3. Self Defense may require more than 18 rounds (CoF 19)

    4. My Browning clone is capable of holding more than 10 rounds in the magazine, but that is what it is limited to in the "Enhanced Service Pistol". SD does not limit me to that. And my clone is far from "Enhanced".


    I can go on and on, ad nauseam, but I think you understand.

    So, avoiding the "far out world" of USPSA / IPSC, and the limitations of IDPA, is there a shooting discipline that is truly "Defensive Pistol"?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  2. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    Cowboy Action Shooting.

    :p
     

  3. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    I was thinking of something that uses "modern equipment".

    (And cowboy action shooting also has too many restrictions. Like only a 2 shot shotgun, revolvers if they represent something from yesteryear, modern semi-autos need not apply.)

    What IDPA was originally designed for was okay.
    From what I read in the rule book, on one page they say one thing, then on the next, something opposite.

    "IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.
    IDPA shooting events require use of practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense. No “competition only” equipment is permitted in IDPA matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship."

    This is from the rule book, but then in the firearms area, they start with restricting what firearm classes are allowed and what is or is not allowed in each class.

    Understanding that the IDPA does not want an equipment war like IPSC, I still feel like they are restricting which "Defensive Pistol" I am allowed to use, how many rounds I can shoot, how many targets there should be in a course of fire, etc....
     
  4. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Dan,

    I used to shoot NRA Action Pistol competition and found them to be pretty good for CCW training.

    It is restricted to (6) rounds in the magazine so revolvers and autos can compete evenly but I just chalked this up to an opportunity to practice tactical magazine changes under stress... which I would not consider to be a bad thing to practice.

    The equipment rules are pretty loose and geared toward limiting competitors to "realistic" carry guns in "realistic" carry holsters.

    Several scenario's, some with barricades, timed engagements, and several requiring a reload.

    Your Hi Power would be fine and I'd highly recommend this program.

    It's amazing how quickly you figure out what your doing wrong... and correct it, when your forced to do it under stress.

    Good Luck

    Tack
     
  5. ttsl

    ttsl New Member

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    You can CREATE a realistic shooting sport, you know. why are there 4 bases in baseball, not 3 or 5? because somebody SAID so, in the beginning, that's why! Why do you have to dribble a basketball, hmm? because somebody set up the sport that way.

    Long ago, I got a couple of dozen people to show up regularly, by putting out a lot of my time and a bit of money, but not a lot. I designed and ran the matches. People agreed to my rules, because i paid 30% of the purse, (guaranteeing a 10 person purse), to the winner, 20% to 2nd place, 10% to third place, 5% to 4th place. If i were to do this today, I'd guarantee a 20 place purse, pay 18% to 1st, 16% to 2nd, 14% to 3rd, 12% to 4th, 10% to 5th, 8% to 6th, 6% to 7th, 4% to 8th place, and the remaining 14% to 20th place. :) This last thing would be a sort of door prize, actually, but it would help see to it that I'd get at least 20 entrants. Then all I'd have to do is win and I'd get 18%. At $15 or so per entry, that's $50 or so if I won. That sort of money being "winnable' WILL get people to come to your matches, and play by your rules. You can adjust the % of the purse, the guarantee, the number of places paid, the % reserved for "the club" (ie you) to whatever amount suits you, of course.

    Then you can make the ranges and times realistic, like sub 5 yds and sub 1.5 seconds, and let people start "hand on gun" in their pants or coat pockets, or in "low ready", or holding the gun at their side, or whatever. Never more than 3 targets per string of fire, normally just one. Half of the time, run such matches in the dark, with half of the shots fired with and half without a flashlight being required.

    "Darkness" is easily had, actually, with a few 2x4's and 2-3 layers of black construction sheet plastic. :) It's not burglars in your home that you have to worry about. Punks on the street or in vehicles are 4x as likely to be the issue.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  6. bildee

    bildee New Member

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    No, but you can easily create one. Quit waiting for someone else to do all the work. Just guarantee a $400 purse, pay out most of the money to the first 6 places, 18%, 16%, and so on, with 5% or more to 20th place, (sort of a door prize, really) and you'll get 20+ guys to pay you $20 entry fees. So all you have to do is WIN, and you'll lose very little, if any money. :) Then, Like John Bianchi, you can set whatever rules you want, and the guys will abide by them. Especially so if you have low cost rental gear available (and advertise this).

    Put up line drawing-reproducion posters at the gun shows, shops, ranges, laundromats, restaurants, wallys, etc. I even put them up at a college when I did this. :) Provide the little "tear off" strips with a (throwaway) cell phone number and a gmail free email addy. (likewise untracable). U will get some "haters" on your case, you know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  7. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Really IDPA doesn't allow real world holsters. You can only be competitive with an OWB holster. Using a IWB holster every course of fire would be timed at 53 seconds (max penalties). The timer doesn't stop until you holster your gun. I don't understand how holstering your gun has anything to do with self defense. You are penalized and sometimes DQed for pointing the gun at yourself while holstering the empty weapon.

    This could easily be resolved by stopping the timer when you dry fire to show the gun is empty.
     
  8. bhee321

    bhee321 New Member

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    I dunno if you've actually shot an idpa match or not, but you time stops when you shoot your last shot, not when you holster your weapon.

    Also sweeping your body is a no no in any kind of competition shooting out there. Actually in any kind of training that you will ever take.
     
  9. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Exactly how are you supposed to holster a gun IWB without sweeping yourself? Some of the nylon pancake holsters that fit real tight to the body are very tough to holster without sweeping yourself. So you have taken training in defying physics?

    I prefer to shoot IDPA with a Ruger P95. The SO's come up with different rules at every match so I finally traded a Glock I had for an XD. At least with the DA I get consistent rules. In regards to my P95 I had a letter from the tiger team with an IDPA letterhead and contact numbers. SO's would get snotty and say the tiger team isn't running this match.

    I am an old goat who shoots IDPA to get some target practice. I have no chance of winning a match. I do pretty well on a course of fire that is all steels at 25 yards I have won a few of them. But I mostly wanted to make friends. Coming from the shotgun world IDPA shooters are a bunch of snobs. I never met anyone I would want to make friends with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  10. bhee321

    bhee321 New Member

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    I'm sorry that your experiences with idpa haven't been good ones. Perhaps looking for a different club might be the answer. I've been shooting idpa for about 6 months only and the clubs I have been to are great! I haven't really came across any snobs. Mostly friendly and very helpful.

    As far as the bolstering without sweeping yourself.. Try bringing the gun to the outside of the holster first as if you had an owb. That should be easily accomplished without sweeping yourself. The pulling the gun up and then into the holster.
     
  11. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    I shoot IDPA. I have been a regular competator for about a year and a half. I also shot in a few competitions with the Jail ministry. (I shot against officers not inmates. LOL)

    The reasons for 10 round limits in magazines is just to make it fair. IDPA is international. Some states only allow people to own 10 round magazines. California is one of them. Our scores are compared to other people all over the country, and the world for that matter.

    As far as revolver neutral...that just means that stages are to be set up where people using revolvers don't run out of ammo in between two disappearing target or while moving from one place of cover to another.
    I have used a 44 mag twice in IDPA. Try it. You will see there is a huge disadvantage to using a revolver. I do it just for the challenge. Out of 51 shooters, three of us were using revolvers at the July match.

    Shooting in different divisions is again simply to make it fair. It would not be fair to let people shooting a single action auto to compete against people using a double action trigger. At the end of a match I compare my final score against everyone, not just my division. That just makes me feel good to know that I out shot 18 autos with my revolver. But I admit some of the other shooters swept the floor with me. But that is what it is.

    Just go try it before you decide you don't like it. I dare you to not have a good time!
     
  12. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Another reason for a 10 round limit is to force the shooter to reload. The average course of fire requires 18 shots. Limiting shooters to 10 shots per magazine forces a tactical reload. Every experienced shooter tries to reload while moving to another position of cover. The courses of fire are set up so the shooter should be able to shoot the first section with 8 or 9 shots. If everything goes right the shooter should have one shot in the chamber at the end of the course of fire.

    I have to salute the promoters of IDPA and ZSA (zombie shooters of America) in this area. They can create realistic courses of fire with a couple junk cars and some cardboard. I have been shooting ZSA a lot more than IDPA lately. The lack of rules allow promoters to create courses of fire that are suitable for a wide range of weapons. In this area ZSA matches have several divisions allowing the shooter to shoot everything from shotguns to single action revolvers. ZSA even has fun matches that are shot with 22 LR pistols and rifles.
     
  13. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    My schedule should allow me to hit the local competition this month.

    I'm going to use my Hi-Power clone and Fobus holster and mag carriers.

    Can't wait!!!!
     
  14. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    Did you get to shoot yet? Let us know if you had a good time.
     
  15. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    I shot in the Colorado State Championship on Saturday. I took first place for my division. I was the only one in it! LOL. I got a plaque for not shooting myself I guess. LOL. My wife says it was because I was the only one man enough to bring a 44 mag! One of the Safety Officers asked, "So does anyone have a 4 inch 29?" I said, "I do but it is a 629." He was shocked and said, "I was only joking!" When I was done there were burn marks on all the barricades that I stood next to! I had an awesome time!!!
     
  16. rockratt

    rockratt Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Congratulations!!!!!!!!!
     
  17. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks RockRatt.
     
  18. indy36

    indy36 New Member

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    I love IDPA events. I shoot them as often as I can. I use a Steyr C9-A1 or a Glock 34. Sucks you don't like it. Mine is full of good people. Have you looked into the USPSA (The United States Practical Shooting Association)? It's different than IPSC and IDPA.
     
  19. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Sometimes its not easy to find good idpa folks. Where I'm at I've settled on cas just because the local idpa group is more anal retentive than 2 dozen geeks having a dungeons and dragons nerd off...
     
  20. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    It is tough to find a good IDPA group here. There is an IDPA range near here that I shoot at every few months. They mark my time on every course of fire at 53 seconds. They usually have one course of fire that is all steel. I usually shoot the steels without a miss.

    On day one a competitor threatened to shoot me during the safety orientation. I didn't say a word but I had my hand on the 380 in my pocket. I don't know how that range got selected as the location of the 2012 national championships. Maybe the people at IDPA corporate are birds of a feather. When someone threatens to shoot another competitor before he has had a chance to introduce himself, and he is still there, they are butt buddies. Now I know what they are about I call them butt buddies to their face.

    Here is the URL for this place. Don't worry I am not scared to tell them exactly what I posted: http://www.the-range.com/
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013