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Ok. Arizona, where you can drive all day and see,nothing but Joshua trees is representitive of the nation.
BTW i actually have been to Nothing Az several times. Not sure its even there anymore.
But onward. Lets say for brevity sake you and Cato are right about prisons.
Say we release nobody with present drug sentences.
We still kill a multi billion dollar a yr black market. And we shut down a completely corrupt and failed fed bureaucracy the DEA.
We eliminate the excuse for the bill of rights violating.
Search with no warrants.
No knock raids
Civil forfeiture
Militarization of police
By local and federal LE and gov.
Stop the inflow of whatever number of useless drug charge prisioners for good.
And the cherry on the cup cake get all gov out of individuals personal lives until such time as they commit an actual direct harm to another.

No upside to continuing this present farce of a " war".
And much individual liberty , regained rights and no small amount of wasted money to gain by stopping it.
I get it - you just want legalized drugs and actual numbers and facts mean nothing to you. So you are reduced to insulting the state that provides real information WHICH YOU HAVE NOT DONE ONCE. But, I will address your points;

We still kill a multi billion dollar a yr black market. And we shut down a completely corrupt and failed fed bureaucracy the DEA. Evidence shows that illicit drug smuggling is still going on in California and Colorado, so I don't know how you get there with that, but I'll go along with it for now. As for shutting down DEA, for once I am in total agreement - I don't like ANY federal agency poking noses into state business. make it a state by state thing.
We eliminate the excuse for the bill of rights violating. Good try - not even close. They have eroded the 4th Amendment to almost uselessness and absolutely nothing whatsoever is going to bring that back barring a YUGE landmark SCOTUS case and even then they would fight tooth and nail. "They" meaning all aspects of government. Liberty surrendered is liberty lost.
Search with no warrants. See above.
No knock raids See above. Also I agree with no-knock raids being wrong. I also know that absent a sea change like you've never seen, they will remain.
Civil forfeiture Paying attention much? Arizona, (I know how much you hate my state, which has every type of terrain, excepting tundra, much more than Joshua trees - have you even been here?) just eliminated civil forfeiture without a conviction. So no more charging the money with a crime. Federally should be changed to the same thing or eliminated entirely. I highly disagree with civil forfeiture laws without a LOT of safeguards. https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/1R/laws/0327.pdf
Militarization of police Many PDs do have far too much military equipment, but so do the gangs. Did you watch the cartels in Mexico fighting the police with technicals equipped with 50 caliber M2s, and gang members showing off RPG7s and LAW rockets? These people are right across the border. I would love to go back to the neighborhood beat cop I remember in the 70s but it's not likely. However, sometimes it's just ridiculous - Sheriff Arpio once showed off his M2HB, a weapon completely and utterly unsuited for any policing activity. That and all other heavy weapons in police possession should be immediately returned to military arsenals. Civilians should own more of them.
By local and federal LE and gov. Good luck at the Fed level - The Dept of Education has a SWAT team. They like their toys and won't give them up without a fight.
Stop the inflow of whatever number of useless drug charge prisioners for good. You might read some of the charges on your local "drug" offenders, your "harmless" druggies who will break into occupied homes to score for meth...and THAT WON'T CHANGE IF IT'S LEGAL, because they STILL have to PAY for it. Or would you like a government program that gives away meth to addicts for free? You failed to understand the point that hard drugs kill and people who are wrapped up in that scene will still have to find a way to GET those drugs...most of then can't get what you would call solid jobs. But they can steal your stuff to hock for the drugs you want them to have.
And the cherry on the cup cake get all gov out of individuals personal lives until such time as they commit an actual direct harm to another. What a lovely dream, and we'll have that when they serve that free bubbleup and that rainbow stew. We lost THAT fight waaaaay back before the Civil War, so while it might be nice, it will never, ever, ever happen. Government is more in your life than you can possible imagine, and not going away any time soon, unless REALLY good things happen at SCOTUS, and even then it will be a hell of a fight.
You misunderstand in the fact that I am partially on your side in that I really don't CARE if weed is legal or not - I still won't touch it, and that's just me. But I SEE the hell that other drugs cause on all three sides, user, dealer, and family, and legalizing it will NOT change that in any way...it will just make it easier. But hey, my body, my choice, right?
 

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BTW, Nothing, AZ was named as a joke and has been an abandoned town for years. And if you went there you probably passed through Phoenix to get there, a city that is the fifth LARGEST city in terms of land area in the entire US. But thanks for playing.
 

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Oh, here is something I never expected to see - pot decriminalization related to housing costs. THAT is funny!
 

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I don't think a lot of people understand what The Black Market means as far as influence, crime, taxes, and other things. It is used to make a lot of people a lot of money. The govt. is left out because people want it that way. There's a black market for almost anything that's illegal. Ban AR-15's and they all suddenly become more valuable and begin to be trafficked even more, for example. Either way, people are going to get what they want. Done with this thread.
 

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have favored Work Detail, Work Gangs, Chain Gangs for all Prisoners for a very long time. Drugs or whatever. 1 Diversion from, being in a cell with other criminals dreaming of crime and radicalization, 2 get some production from them, as they would in normal life, outside prison for normal people, 3 Discipline such as prison boot camps. I am convinced that Criminals, amny went that way becaause they were not raised properly, are not disciplined, have no work or other ethics and no direction. A great many have been saved by going into the Military. They got more out than the put in, but of course many sacrificed themselves for God, family and Country. I'm 100% Disabled and old but wish I were still in the Military. Once a Felon that Military option is out of course, or perhaps they can't pass the simple tests. Those who are addicted to Marijuana or other drugs, or perhaps just used it a few times have lost enough cognitive capacity to pass simple tests..and their first goal often only goal is more drugs, the brain being now warped that they have to have that sedation and or stimulation etc. Put prisoners to work and train them to reach their individual maximum capability, within society. Help them develop work ethics, adversion to drugs, give them the desire, discipline and drive for success, in other words get them to come to the Light side. Not..to rod in mind in a cell full of other criminals. Indeed an idle mind and Idle body is the Devil's Work Shop!
 

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The thing is, MJ is already so prevalent, so available that anyone, and I mean anyone, who wants it can get it without much effort. It is nearly casual in all settings. I see people smoking it practically everywhere. However, the argument from those for and those against is reminiscent of the gun debate. Those against guns say if we allow people to just carry there will be a wild west shoot'em up blood baths in the streets and those for it think people will be safer. So far, in the places where it has been allowed, no blood baths and associated declines in violent crime. As it turns out, the blood bath they claimed has been going on in the highly restrictive cities.....

The situation right now with MJ in this country is similar to prohibition. People want it, the market is operating quite well, with or without government "approval." Even the medical MJ states are seeing big increases in the industry. Heck, right here in PA, we just had a big new grow site built about 45 minutes away from me with associated help wanted ads for various job positions at the facility.

I get that no one wants an employee stoned on the job, but guess what, just like the anecdotal stories here, it's already happening. Making MJ legal, or keeping it illegal isn't going to change that. If you want your employees not stoned, then piss test them and fire the ones who pop positive. Just an idea.

And, as I said before, just like the gun debate, practically everyone of us here advocate an unrestricted 2A, we oppose the anti's and their blood baths in the street claims and that criminals need to be held accountable...but in the case of MJ (ignoring alcohol), it's suddenly different?

The idea of freedom and holding the wrong doer accountable when they break the law or harm others is a principle. As a principle, it is steadfast and applies, or should, for all things. If we selectively apply it, we're nothing more than hypocrites.
 

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I get that no one wants an employee stoned on the job, but guess what, just like the anecdotal stories here, it's already happening. Making MJ legal, or keeping it illegal isn't going to change that. If you want your employees not stoned, then piss test them and fire the ones who pop positive. Just an idea.
Yup. Turns out, it's really, at the core, an issue of effectiveness and competence. If you fail to be effective as a staffer, then the company can deal with you via the normal and customary procedures the company has for handling sub-par performance. Doesn't much matter if it's a result of inattentiveness, or drunkenness, or being high, or thinking of the hot date this weekend, or whatever. Don't need an infrastructure or legal mess in place to handle such risks. Just need companies dealing with it on an as-needed basis, when the issue arises with a given individual. And if they, as individual companies, want to have a testing regimen in place or a zero-tolerance screening policy in place, that's on them. Works just fine. Without government heavy-handedness required.
 

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I can only speak for my experiences. In the 70's, there was no shortage of marijuana or speed. I lived in a northern suburb or Chicago, near the Wisconsin border.
In high school I ran with the regular crowd. We had two groups, the druggies and the juicers. (juicers being mostly beer drinkers).
We didn't need to go out to "score" either. It was offered more often than anything else. Fake ID's took care of the liquor, but someone in our group always looked old enough to purchase beer and checking ID's was not an issue then.
The border between Wisconsin and Illinois was nicknamed "blood border" because of the difference in the age of alcohol consumption and the accidents resulting from young inexperience drinkers.
There were stops on every weekend night at the border to check sobriety. The problem with underage residents of Illinois getting drunk in Wisconsin was all to frequent.
But the issues with weed.....almost non-existent although it was evident there were more pot smokers than heavy drinkers.
Marijuana, no matter where you get it should be treated EXACTLY like alcohol.
You use too much and you are impaired, you should suffer the consequences. If you are smart enough to temper your usage, good for you.
I have never met a violent pot smoker, but violent drunks.....way too often.
 

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Throughout his lifetime, George Washington cultivated hemp at Mount Vernon for industrial uses. The fibers from hemp held excellent properties for making rope and sail canvas. In addition, hemp fibers could be spun into thread for clothing or, as indicated in Mount Vernon records, used in repairing the large seine nets Washington used in his fishing operation along the Potomac.

At one point in the 1760’s Washington considered whether hemp would be a more lucrative cash crop than tobacco but determined wheat was a better alternative.
 

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have favored Work Detail, Work Gangs, Chain Gangs for all Prisoners for a very long time. Drugs or whatever. 1 Diversion from, being in a cell with other criminals dreaming of crime and radicalization, 2 get some production from them, as they would in normal life, outside prison for normal people, 3 Discipline such as prison boot camps. I am convinced that Criminals, amny went that way becaause they were not raised properly, are not disciplined, have no work or other ethics and no direction. A great many have been saved by going into the Military. They got more out than the put in, but of course many sacrificed themselves for God, family and Country. I'm 100% Disabled and old but wish I were still in the Military. Once a Felon that Military option is out of course, or perhaps they can't pass the simple tests. Those who are addicted to Marijuana or other drugs, or perhaps just used it a few times have lost enough cognitive capacity to pass simple tests..and their first goal often only goal is more drugs, the brain being now warped that they have to have that sedation and or stimulation etc. Put prisoners to work and train them to reach their individual maximum capability, within society. Help them develop work ethics, adversion to drugs, give them the desire, discipline and drive for success, in other words get them to come to the Light side. Not..to rod in mind in a cell full of other criminals. Indeed an idle mind and Idle body is the Devil's Work Shop!
We do a lot of that inmates who are capable have to have a job, whether picking up cigarette butts on the yard to kitchen to the premium jobs like Wildland Fire Crew of the egg farm. Only ones who can't have jobs is max custody - they generally cannot be trusted to do many things. We also do mandatory programming to lower recidivism, but that is truly a work in progress. We used to have Shock Incarceration, the "boot camp" style, and it worked...sort of...We shut it down before I started and the unit is run as a regular unit now. I did get to see videos of the old techniques at Shock - one was the inmate trying to maintain a "seated" position with his back against a wall, arms out like sitting in a chair. Called it "the electric chair". Seriously. Obviously that type of thing is NOT allowed now and hasn't been allowed for 30 years.
One thing is, many of the inmates I have personally known do not HAVE a higher moral center to reach, in close and max custody; one was never installed.
 

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Wild hemp grew on Mom and Dad's WV place. The dope sniffing dogs at the prison i worked at wouldn't alert on the stuff.
I would agree except neither should be taxed. I would like to see a bill passed to define exactly how much tax is enough.
 

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That sounds familiar. Because anecdotally I can tell you for the last 6 1/2 years at the Cancer Center I take my wife to for Stage 4 Cancer many poor people we have met there had tried MJ for quite some time. Didn't cure or put any thing into remission like they read on the internet. Pain helper, for a few. But they quit taking drugs prescribed by their doctors and went the MJ route. Then came back to the doctors. Too darned late. They passed away.

You may advocate MJ all you wish to. But I have seen far too many pass because they chose that route.
Again, I'm not advocating people use MJ instead of medical treatments, but I've seen it help people in a variety of ways. Take cancer for example, chemo absolutely destroys appetite. MJ can help keep their appetite up. With our friend with leukemia, chemo was NOT stopping it, but with MJ added in, it put it into remission. Watching my relative with parkinsons, it was freaky how it completely stopped his shakes, as in RIGHT NOW. Did it impact his length of life, probably not, but it gave his some quality of life improvements. People with chronic pain, it does a better job than getting addicted to narcotics.
 

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Again, I'm not advocating people use MJ instead of medical treatments, but I've seen it help people in a variety of ways. Take cancer for example, chemo absolutely destroys appetite. MJ can help keep their appetite up. With our friend with leukemia, chemo was stopping it, but with MJ added in, it put it into remission. Watching my relative with parkinsons, it was freaky how it completely stopped his shakes, as in RIGHT NOW. Did it impact his length of life, probably not, but it gave his some quality of life improvements. People with chronic pain, it does a better job than getting addicted to narcotics.
Yeah right. Appetite from Chemo? I haven't seen a problem. Chemo ABSOLUTELY Destroys appetite. You better show me hard core proof of that. Only you advocate that stance. Yeah, you want pot, so go ahead and use it if you wish to.
But don't advocate it for Cancer and other patients when you don't have any Medical proof to back up your claims.
 

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BTW, Nothing, AZ was named as a joke and has been an abandoned town for years. And if you went there you probably passed through Phoenix to get there, a city that is the fifth LARGEST city in terms of land area in the entire US. But thanks for playing.
Absolutely i went thru Phoenix many many times. Stayed there, had family there, been to Nothing , Yuma, Flagstaff, and a bunch of other places in AZ too. I actually love AZ.
As to everything else you erroneously mentioned im not as defeatist as you.
My own state has for the most part banned no knock warrants in its two major cities so yeah liberty lost can be regained.

Its not so much i care if drugs are legal or not . Its that im sick to death of a meddlesome , infringing, law breaking, unconstitutional gov and will support ANYTHING that wrests power from it and returns it to the people .
 

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I generally don't comment on issues like this. There are mostly two categories of people who participate: 1) Those who are already convinced and, 2) Those who will not be convinced.

I have personally observed terminally ill patients obtain some temporary relief from symptoms by using Marijuana. While I don't advocate drug use in anyone, I cannot see how this use of a drug is a bad thing. If you only have a few weeks or months to live, anything that helps at all is really beneficial.

I realize there are those who will say that is not valid because I am not a recognized medical authority and what I saw was not a controlled study. I really don't care. Believe what you want.
 

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I generally don't comment on issues like this. There are mostly two categories of people who participate: 1) Those who are already convinced and, 2) Those who will not be convinced.

I have personally observed terminally ill patients obtain some temporary relief from symptoms by using Marijuana. While I don't advocate drug use in anyone, I cannot see how this use of a drug is a bad thing. If you only have a few weeks or months to live, anything that helps at all is really beneficial.

I realize there are those who will say that is not valid because I am not a recognized medical authority and what I saw was not a controlled study. I really don't care. Believe what you want.
I can agree if under circumstances like you state. Terminally ill patients whom use for a final pain relief help
are OK with me. But not for the use some potheads here seem to wish for.
 

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Do you drink? Why are you an alcoholic then? If I choose to smoke pot (if it is legalized) instead of drinking, I dunno, say maybe a Friday or Saturday evening once or twice a month, am I still a pot head in your book?

I just find it funny that when it comes to things like this, how all of a sudden the same people that say to punish the criminal and not the populace when it comes to guns, want us all punished and not to make it legal.

Oh, I agree, lines have to be drawn in the sand (gee, where have I heard that before?), hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, etc, et al, no, those are not "recreational" drugs that can be consumed responsibly, but pot is no worse than alcohol (which these same people don't seem to have much issue with).
 
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