Debate tips for the coming fight.

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Cattledog, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    In the coming weeks and months, there will no doubt be an escalation of the “great gun debate.” The latest horrific tragedy has indeed sparked a renewed concern about public safety. In all fairness, the concern is warranted. Children became targets and that's not going to stand.

    What was once a semi-seasonal discussion following the latest act of rampage violence has become more emotionally charged than ever. It's with that knowledge that I'd like to share some helpful debate tools for you all to use when you go forth into the interwebs or argue with your neighbor.

    I'll preface this checklist by saying that I am a semi-professional counselor and hold a degree in psychology. I'm also full of surprises, yes. I've debated plenty of people here, on other forums and dolled out my fair share of well-thought-out advice. So, I'd like to give you guys some. It may be helpful or maybe you'll just ignore it all and think “what a pretentious *** cattledog is” That's fine too.
    In any case, I do firmly believe that how a subject is discussed makes all the difference in making a point. So, here's how to do it right.


    1) Keep it logical. Nothing is more disarming than straight logic. Not just facts either but real 1+1+1=3 type logic. Step by step with NO wiggle room. That means....

    2) No emotional opinions. Whoever your debating, about whatever, doesn't care what you think or “feel.” This seems counter-intuitive given the nature of the latest tragedy but it's more important now than ever. This is especially true if the side your debating is emotionally charged. Emotions feed on themselves and that can lead to a polarization of ideas. That's a bad thing. This means no propaganda either: “no second amendment, no first” “guns don't kill people... etc. Those are concepts to build a case, not to be used by themselves as an argument.

    3) No trolling, name calling, berating or otherwise being a jackass. If your debate opponent wishes to sink to that level, let them. Your exchange will be seen and judged by others. Before you say “ I don't care what they think” Yes, you do. Unless you're just arguing to waste time, the object is to make your point understood, not just known. So, don't let you're view get discounted because you were immature.

    4) Your facts are from neutral sources and current. The two biggest idiots online right now is the guy citing reference to the NRA's website arguing with the guy citing from the Brady campain.....pointless. FBI stats from their url are the best. In fact all url's cited should have a .gov or an otherwise neutral url. If you don't have the creativity to debate from raw numbers, you shouldn't be part of the discussion.

    5) Leave the spokesmen out of it. They shouldn't be shaping your opinion anyway, much less driving your own talking points. It used to be that a spokesman’s job was to convert the masses to the cause. Now most of them just lazily preach to the choir. I love Ted Nugent, but the last thing I'll do in a gun control debate is cite or repeat anything he's said..... Ever. It would be like someone showing me a Bloomberg video. I'll just start preparing my response before the videos finished, if watch it in the first place.

    6) Post in the lions den. There have been a few liberal views tossed around here and while some of the arguments have been ill-conceived, I do give them credit for stepping outside their comfort zone. I'm not talking about trolls. I'm talking about real people with real ideas that really want to understand and be understood. There's a big difference. Go forth and post your views where they count. I've seen more than a few threads saying “vote on this poll here!” only to find that its on a clearly Pro-firearm website. Pointless. Take a chance and contribute to the discussion on their terms. Use the tips Ive laid out and you'll be surprised how little response you get. Pro-tip: That usually happens when you've made your point and they have no way to argue it.

    Words to avoid: Gun rights side.
    2nd amendment

    Words to avoid: Gun control side.
    gun violence

    note: Its “words” to avoid not concepts. If your argument has the identical talking points and wording of the media and every other voice on the net, it won't be noticed. Worse, it won't be understood. Be original. That gets noticed.

    Now go get 'em.
  2. Zombiegirl

    Zombiegirl New Member

    Do you have suggestions for positive words that we could use? Your suggestions are great that you listed, but have you found any specific information that has shut down the opposition?

  3. NotMormon

    NotMormon Member

    You have just outlined what 99% of the population is incapable of doing. The biggest obstacle is #2. Once you lose control of the emotional bowel movement, everything else goes down the toilet.

    Sound advice though.
  4. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    Honestly, I'm irritated that the argument has come up yet again with all the same players. I have been relieved to see some journalists focus on the state of mental care though. Given that rampage violence (love that term BTW) is routinely committed by mentally disturbed people, I believe that's where the conversation needs to be steered.

    Positive words for the gun rights crowd off the top of my head:

    The anti-gun groups love the terms and they are deliberately vague.

    I actually forgot a good tip and that is the "bait and switch" It goes like this:

    I understand your point/concern about _______ and that is important. What is also important is __________. How would you address that?
  5. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    Id put it at more like 75%, the loud, stupid ones get all the attention so it seems like more, but yes. Its a big obstacle.
  6. RaySendero

    RaySendero Well-Known Member

    Anti-gunner: We need to have an honest conversation on gun violence.

    My answer: OK I have a solution.

    Anti-gunner: Then let's hear it.

    My answer: We need to stop forcing brave teachers to work in "Gun Free Zones" where the only thing they can do is use their body as a human shield to protect their students!

    Anti-gunner: %^&*# :mad: *&$%#@^ :mad: :mad: :mad:
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  7. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    I had posted somewhere here that I don't really have a problem with gun free zones, so long as there is armed security. IE: most government buildings...come to think of it, schools are government buildings.

    I had to replace my social security card once. "No firearms" sign posted and an armed officer behind a check-in kiosk. There were 4 federal employees, myself and 5 other people in there. That warranted lethal protection. If I had to choose, I would place kids safety over the lot of us any day.
  8. fmj

    fmj Active Member

    Common sense. NEVER lose you cool. We have the facts AND the stats on our side.

    The bait and switch is the BEST! Make them see it from their own point of view.

    The gun control argument is fueled by emotion, FEELING. Just weather the storm and counter with calm, cool facts.

    In a debate in class (Colleges are such an AWESOME place to get converts) I was discussing concealed carry. (I posted this tale soemwhere here before) This was only a couple days removed form the aurora shooting. Some simply couldnt get their heads around how a class mate, setting next to them, with a gun could possibly be a good thing. Their argument was that we had armed security (off duty LEO in full battle gear) at the main entrance.

    I calmly stated, "we are 5 rooms from the back entrance of this building that has NO security other than a camera." I then asked, "Once the shooting starts, how long will it take for the armed security to run down the long corridors to get here to end the shooting? 2, 3 minutes? When the shooting starts so close to you, what will you do? Would you prefer to sit, hope and pray that someone makes it here in time to save you, or would you prefer a classmate pull out their legally concealed firearm? A firearm that until the moment of crisis you had no idea he/she had, and make an attempt to stop the killing as soon as it starts?"

    This semester alone, last day of class, i had two ladies, previously anti gunners, come to me and ask if i would teach them about guns and how to shoot. I gladly said CERTAINLY. The one lass said, your arguments got me to thinking. I am a single mother, my son and I live in the country, if evil comes to visit i have no way to protect myself and my son. I MUST learn to!
  9. Mosin

    Mosin Well-Known Member

    All you have to do is go to liveleak and type in 'burning witches' and watch a recent video of people tossing 'witches' alive and screaming into a burning pit.
    This is the liberal mentality.
    Logic and reason are out the window. All that matters to them is that they whip the public into a blood thirsty frenzy against gun owners and the NRA.

    Prepare to defend yourselves as we are to be portrayed as the 21st century witch scourge, responsible for all that ails society.
  10. Gizord1

    Gizord1 New Member

    I just got blocked from a liberal page on Facebook for starting a huge debate. As a matter of fact, check my last posted thread to see one of the idiotic replies I received as an argument. I used factual evidence, and they still kept arguing nonsense! The way the said some stuff had the same logic as "my shirt is brown, pine trees are brown, therefore my shirt is a pine tree".
  11. nitestalker

    nitestalker Active Member

    When you wrestle pigs in the mud all you get is muddy. And only the pigs enjoy it.:)
  12. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

    DO NOT COME ACROSS AS PATRONIZING!!!! This is important. I hate it when people do it to me and I bet you are all the same. It takes some skill to do this well. Nothing pisses me off more than hearing somebody responding to a question by saying; "That is a terrific question!" when they clearly do not think so, or they clearly know that it was a plant.

    On the other hand it is equally important to acknowledge their position and that you do understand it even if you disagree with them. It is something of a fine line but if you are unable to do this you will probably not be very effective at changing their minds.

    One of the tactics that I have successfully employed is to ask what new laws would have been effective in preventing this horrific event from happening or perhaps have lessened the body count. Many of the suggestions that people come up with are already laws, and CT has some pretty restrictive laws in addition to the Federal laws. Also pointing out that Columbine happened while the AWB was in effect, and many laws were broken by both of the perps as well as the people they bought the guns from.
  13. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

    the problem with many of the true liberal gun hater's is they just can't be reasoned with, fail to accept the facts, and simply can't fathom common sense. they believe that guns are evil and that gun control stops crime and fail to see that all the gun control laws, bans and restrictions have had no positive effect on stopping crime and violent attacks. they expect others to ensure their safety and well being and have no concept of being able to able to defend themselves against violence.

    the ones to try and convice are the fence sitters and non-gun owners. these are the ones that can possibly be converted to the ranks of law abiding gun owners. our children are another group of citizens that need to be taught the truth about firearms. not the stupid crap in the movies, tv or video games, but the reality of what real firearms are about. the facts, not the hype and mistruths.
  14. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 Active Member

    Heres the only arguement that makes sense-

    "Gun Controls dont work", (other than a properly maintained weapon with a safety lever, but i digress).

    Thats all....
  15. charlesmar

    charlesmar New Member

    You know, where is our next Reagan.

    This crap is getting crazy.

    Making another donation to NRA and OFF today.
  16. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 Active Member

    Condoleza Rice would be my first choice, Reluctantly, Powell as VP.

    That should satisfy everyone right (and Left)?

    Smart, Constitutional, knowledgeable about most things past and present and







    They both like guns (I bet you didnt think thats what I was going to write did you)!
  17. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    Great point. The first step to win any battle is to choose it wisely
  18. FullautoUSA

    FullautoUSA Welcoming Committee/ Resident Pellet Gunner Lifetime Supporter

    Another term I think is good for us is INANIMATE OBJECT, I think that should basically stop any pro-gun-control people right in their tracks
  19. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

    that only works with people who can reason and understand common sense. the true liberal gun hater's and those that support more gun control can't reason and won't listen to common sense in the first place. with most of them, you would be just wasting your breath and time. they are spoiling for an argument or looking for an emotional confrontation. personally, i think it's much better to walk away, than to waste time and energy on trying to debate with people who are idiots and can't see the forest for the trees. the facts are there and have been, and time has proven beyond any doubt that past and current gun control laws are ineffective, and they still want more of them in place!

    if you feel compelled to debate or argue with them over these issues, then knock yourself out. personally i have BTDT and find i have better things to do with my time and energy. most of these people have lived with their beliefs for many years and many will not convert or change their beliefs no matter how valid your arguments are.
  20. lbwar15

    lbwar15 Active Member

    This was a conversation between me and a co worker yesterday.

    Co-worker: let me ask you something

    Me: ok what's up

    Co-worker: what do you thank about that shooting

    Me: I thank it could have bin avoided, and it angers me that it happened.

    Co-worker: so what about the AWB

    Me: what about it

    Co-worker: are you for it or against it

    Me: against it

    Co-worker: well what about the kids, just thank about the kids

    Me: what is a ban on the seal of AW going to solve

    Co-worker: people can't buy AW and do this

    Me: ok, so how is that going to stop someone who already has one from doing this?

    Co-worker:........ I dont know

    Me: it's not

    Co-worker: I know but. Well you know

    Me: how about armed security

    Co-worker: and what if they git shot

    Me: it's better than what we have now

    Co-worker: that would coast a lot of money

    Me: I can thank of 100 ways we could come up with the money. One involves the presidents vacation fund. But seeing as how that might be a problem. Me among thousands of other NRA members I'm sure would not mind paying an extra $20 a year to pay for it.