Comparing CC holders to First Responders?

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by chloeshooter, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    The link below is to a petition to the interim CEO of Target Corporation:

    https://www.change.org/petitions/john-mulligan-target-welcome-lawful-gun-owners

    In a nutshell, it is asking that CC rights be observed by Target, which I agree with, but then makes what I consider to be the most misguided of statements:

    "We need more first responders -- people who are on the scene and can stop attacks more quickly....... If law-abiding people, who are trained and licensed to carry guns, are blocked from shopping at Target, only the Second Responders (police) will be available to help, eventually, when they arrive."

    No. This is NOT what conceal carry is for. It is to protect YOU. Whoever wrote this letter is either very unfamiliar with laws surrounding self-defense justification or just does not agree with it. The LAST thing we need is a bunch of folks who consider themselves 'trained' because they can shoot nice holes in paper making snap life and death decisions as unofficial "Johnny First Responder". We are not deputized nor empowered just because we have CC permits...it simply does not work that way

    "Every month, many Americans carry guns into Target stores with no ill effects. Many or most of these customers will stop shopping at Target if the corporate owners require shoppers to be defenseless"

    Um, no. Target will lose very little business. Let's not be kidding ourselves, not that many of us conceal carry as a percentage of the overall population.

    Last thought - an interim CEO is not going to make a call on a decision like this in a million years.

    OKAY so it sounds like I think this letter is a big waste of time - it probably is - but not because of what it requests (observe state laws regarding cc) but the rationale it gives (because a cc responder will stop mass shootings) is not correct nor legal most places
     
  2. WNGMSTR

    WNGMSTR Troll Scout

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    I was listening to a radio program yesterday and they had on a guy from a Mn CC org. that was lobbying Target to not take Doombergs pressure.

    Can't remember the orgs. name ......
     

  3. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    It is legal in Colorado. And if I were on the scene when it started I would try to stop them. That is why I carry...to protect myself, my loved ones and if necessary other innocent people.
     
  4. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    unless you have had situational training, there is a very good chance you could shoot the wrong person or, as we have seen recently in Las Vegas.....get yourself shot
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I am not a hero. I will hide. Unless an active shooter stumbles upon me I am going to wait for the Calvary. I don't carry a shotgun or rifle into target. A pistol is a weapon of last resort. Last resort means you have no choice, it's either shoot or be shot. A pistol of any kind is a damn poor offensive weapon.

    I would do all I could to get innocent people to a safe area and try to calm people who are ready to panic.
     
  6. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    I am pretty sure that in all 50 states the Penal code has an exception for "in defense of others" that covers CC holders when faced with such a scenario. I see what you are saying and to a point agree and I definitely wouldn't call a CC holder a first responder, but would rather say "on site citizen responder" and yes the guy that put the petition up is an idiot
     
  7. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    Me personally am going towards the gunfire because I HAVE had training in active shooter takedowns and I would much rather take a bullet trying to take him/her down than not doing anything and having more unarmed civilians die, but thats just me. Now if my family is with me I will get them to safety before attempting to locate and attack.
     
  8. Argyle_Armoring

    Argyle_Armoring New Member

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    This is me as well. I am an officer. If my family is with me I'm getting them to the van and the Hell out of Dodge while I stay behind and engage the shooter. My wife and I have gone over this dozens of times and she knows what to do to get the boys out of harms way. She knows I'm going back in after the suspect.

    My biggest fear is not nuclear war or dying in a fire. It's not doing something when I could have. I don't want to play that "what if" scenario in my head the rest of my life and live with that guilt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  9. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    and that is why I war game scenarios in my head everyday! Even doing that prepares you if a situation arises. What would I do if a carjacker stuck a gun in my face? What would I do if someone pulled a knife on me while walking to my car from work? What would I do if I was at the store and an active shooter starts shooting? These wargames in your mind help prepare and help prevent panicking in a situation. I am the same way Argyle I already beat myself up over losing 2 teammates in Iraq that I had nothing to do with I was back at the compound on my QRF rotation and they were out on armed recon. Two weeks prior to the mission they were killed on I was on an armed recon as a dismount team leader in a Bradley IFV when an IED hit us and we escaped with minor wounds because the engine took the brunt of the hit. Now my friends went on the same mission 2 weeks later and were hit with an IED about the same size as the one that got me, but it hit under the troop compartment and lit up the fuel pods and ammo links. Now if I still feel terrible about that and there was nothing I could do what the hell would happen if a scenario like this arose and people were dying and being wounded and I did nothing when I had the chance to stop it?
     
  10. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I am not trying to put you down or shine a negative light on your words. When you go to target with the wife and kids quite often all you will have is a pocket pistol or the easiest to carry rig you own.

    Many of us have been trained to clear buildings. But we were trained to have superior or at least equal firepower when clearing a building. You know what happens when you bring a pistol to a rifle fight.
     
  11. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    the only thing i need is speed, surprise, and violence of action. If some ******* is shooting up a target and all I have is my keys im grabbing a bat or other improvised weapon and i am gonna ambush the clown and I am going to win or die trying.
     
  12. Argyle_Armoring

    Argyle_Armoring New Member

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    Actually, I rarely get to go to Target with my family because of the hours I work. However, when I am off duty I always have with me: G26 with 11 rounds, G17 magazine with 17 rounds, my 5.11 pocket light, nylon Tuff Tie Cuff, and my Gerber automatic knife. It may seem like a lot it's not. I even have my "Go Bag" in the car with me everywhere I go.

    I go to the range every week. I practice moving and shooting and reloading and using cover. I'm confident in my skills that I could take down an active shooter if the need ever arises.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  13. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's easy said, you might think differently if bullets are flying your direction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  14. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Every situation is different, so no one knows how they will react until they are in that situation unless they have a crystal ball do they .? So I won't say how I would react simply because I don't know. I am not saying you do, but I suspect some people watch too many Rambo films.
     
  15. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    Well this thread sure got stupid in a hurry. Let's stay on topic and take the petty pissing contest elsewhere
     
  16. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    Just so happens that almost all of your posts are anti self defense/defense of others which I have no problem I just think it's weird coming from a firearms owner (even one from the uk) it's when you start trying to tell me what you think I would do that I take offense to! Like I said before I could not and would not live with myself if I did nothing even if outnumbered and against overwhelming odds it may sound Ramboish to you,but some of us are cut from different cloth


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  17. Franklin1995

    Franklin1995 New Member

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    I'm perfectly fine with people having a opinion. The problem is that Sean stated his opinion, you stated yours (which happens to disagree). Sean emphasized his again. That should have been the end of it. Instead, you proceed to tell him that he's wrong, making a smart*** comment about a crystal ball. Then in your next post you continue to be a smart***, saying that you'll shove a firearm up the BG's ***.

    Opinions are fine. Disagreeing and being disrespectful are completely different things.

    Key word is the I there. Some people have been through hell already, and know exactly how they acted. And some others have a set of ideals that dictate how they would act in a situation like that, especially those that were in the military. Almost all veterans in the U.S. since Vietnam have been volunteers (no disrespect to those that were drafted in Vietnam.) They took a oath to protect people, and that oath doesn't expire.
     
  18. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    Ok in done with the pissing match back on topic I think the petition was well intended but poorly worded


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  19. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Show me one post were I was anti self defence. This is about defending others not self defence.


    Are you trying to tell me that everyone that was in the military would act the same way in the type of situation we are talking about. If you are you are kidding yourself. Everyone is different even ones that have being in the military and act differently. In the military you are put in situations that leave little choice on what way to react. Civilians have a choice and will decide what to do if and when it happens.

    Having a set of ideals on what you would do , and what you would do in that type of situation could be different. Its impossible to know what you would do in a theoretical situation.

    What's the point of asking a question if you only want people to agree, people do agree and disagree on subjects. As for being disrespectful I would find this type of comment as disrespectful as well as just plain ignorant.
    He should run that type of comment by the next British soldiers he is serving beside se how he gets on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  20. G30USMC

    G30USMC New Member Supporter

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    Keep posts on topic, and do not attack other members