Combat proven? What does it really mean?

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by indyfan, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    Being new to AR-15 scene, there was a point in my life when I was gonna purchase a Delton or CMMG AR. After discussing it with a few friends of mine who are LE and Border Patrol, they suggested I spend more and get something better. Then I was gonna get an Armalite or RRA. After consulting with my friends again, they were still hesitant and told me to buy either BCM or Daniel Defense. When I asked them why, they just told me "Those companies are combat proven." Those two words stuck with me for a while, what did it mean to be combat proven? I figured it meant an AR-15 that has seen duty in either Military, LE, SWAT, etc

    Now what's confusing me is that I've been watching a TV show called "DEA" and they use RRA AR-15's. If the DEA issues the RRA, wouldn't that make RRA a combat proven AR-15 company?

    I know police officers where I live use Bushmasters. Wouldn't Bushmaster be combat proven too? What is the real difference between a company like Bushmaster and a company like Bravo Company?
     
  2. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Indyfan,

    Yes the DEA-FBI-Bureau of Indian Affairs-US Capitol Police-Some of the US Marshals and other government agencies are issued the Rock River Govt. Model rifles. It is the same as the RRA Tactical CAR A-4 should a person want to add things on as they get the $$$$. I prefer the Elite CAR A-4 with the Mid-length hand guard. It would have been the rifle of choice for that DEA/FBI25,000 rifle contract but Surefire did not have the 2 Piece Quad Rail for it at the time. They just finished the M-73 Quad Rail in time for the contract. So it was my opinion that is why they went with the Tactical CAR A-4 Rifle that with the options still seen in the RRA catalog today became the Govt. Model. Now there are all kinds of Quad Rails available for the mid-length rifles. And "allegedly" you can bet their RRAs are battle proven as they call it. More than once! Even in other countries!

    03
     

  3. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    I suppose it can mean many things according to who is using the term. Technically nothing is combat proven to you unless you have personally carried it in combat. What it generally means, however, is that the platform or manufacturer has passed the testing under Military Specifications (MilSpec) and the weapon has gone through military procurement channels and has seen service in the field. That being said there are still some that do not consider the 1911 as combat worthy due to the limited capacity compared to a, dare I say it, Glock.

    But this also raises an issue, no AR available to the civilian market can ever be truly built to Mil Spec, and therefore combat proven, since the military requires a full auto select fire rifle.

    My point is, I guess, is to buy whatever suits you. There are dozens of AR manufacturers that make damn good products that some will turn their noses up on. Poke around the AR thread and check out the threads there. If you have questions about specific models I guarantee you that someone will have an opinion for you that is based on fact and personal experience, not interwebz lore...
     
  4. Shihan

    Shihan Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Sounds like the same logic Glockophiles use in their arguments for why you should own a Glock.

    As a Del-Ton owner I can tell you they are a good rifle.

    They are down the road about 40 miles and started by former LEO's.

    What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet.--Willy Shakespeare:D
     
  5. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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    It also means GI proof. Even if it's supposedly unbreakable, a GI can and will find a way to break it. I think combat tested aside, it also means mostly unbreakable. ;)
     
  6. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I am going to try and phrase this as delicately as possible, so please, I hope that you don't take this personally.

    Your friends. The guys you are going to for AR "advice". They are AR Snobs.

    AR Snobs are just an extension of gun snobs everywhere, but this is a special sub category that is HARMFUL to anyone interested in the platform because they try to convince you to spend 2, 3 or 10 times what you need to do for a weapon you are interested in owning.

    "Battle Proven" is pretty easy. You pick up a rock from a pile and Randy Johnson picks up a rock from a pile and you begin throwing them at each other. After the initial volley, you are both "Battle Proven" as is your "gear". That doesn't mean the next person who gets into a rock fight is going to benefit or throw like Randy Johnson because he is wearing the same clothes or even throwing the same rocks. :rolleyes:

    Bottom line in my mind? If the weapon is well built, and you as the operator can work on, maintain and hit what you are aiming at with it, who the hell cares what name is on the f*cking side?!

    Parts are parts. Some are good, others are better. But if you build your own weapon, and you know how the damn thing works, I guarantee you it will perform when needed.

    Tell your friends thanks, but you are going to build a BETTER AR than they can buy. Then PM Quentin, Sniper03, mjkeat or a host of other FTF members who will steer you in the right direction. ;)

    JD
     
  7. diggsbakes

    diggsbakes New Member

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    If the gun shoots straight, doesn't FTF or jam, can put an appropriate amount of firepower at the target and YOU are capable of doing so effectively, then it is Combat Ready.

    In my eyes. . . Once the gun has exhibited all of the above traits in a competition, strenuous testing or straight up battle, then it is "battle proven"

    The stamp on the receiver is nothing more than that A STAMP! If you have 2 rifles that have the exact same qualities and traits and one of them has a roll mark that you really dig or that does something for you, then by all means go for that one. But that should be the last thing you look at.

    I like my ARs to look good and I find it fun to mess around with the cosmetic end of it, however I do so after the gun is functioning how I want it to. . .
     
  8. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    Thanks for the advice Dillinger :D Unfortunately I already purchased the BCM parts, but my next AR-15 will be probably be something less expensive (and hopefully I'll have an NFA license by then). I will look to their advice in the future.
     
  9. Car54

    Car54 New Member

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    indyfan, if you're like a lot others the first one is like tasting candy. One taste is never enough. Start putting some cash aside my friend.
     
  10. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

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    Even BMs can be made into duty read y rifles w/ a little work. The thing is if you're spending that kind of money why not spend $100 more (not so much as 3, 4, or even twice as much) and get something ready to roll from a manufacturer known for building in spec rifles. To me its worth slightly more to make sure things like gas ports, chambers, and staking are done correctly. The majority of your lower end brands are not built properly or are made of lesser materials. They also don't test each bolt or barrel. Often $100 will get you hundreds more. Such is the case w/ BCM or Daniel Defense.

    I just had my DD out this past Fri. Let me tell you that thing shoots, or you can say, that dog'l hunt. It shoots nicer than my $2000 LWRC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  11. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Indy, you probably didn't spend much more for BCM parts so enjoy them. If you shop around and catch sales you can do quite well buying the better brands yet still keep your cost for the basic rifle in line. As usual JD's advice is right on but I will admit I tend to lean to the snobby side. :D Just don't make the mistake of going too cheap, there is a happy midpoint between snobbery and outright crappery so try to find the best fit for you. Set your budget and then buy the best components you can find in that range.

    My first build was a S&W lower with an ArmaLite upper which morphed into a complete ArmaLite when I bought that stripped lower for my second AR. The S&W lower now has a Daniel Defense upper much like mjkeat's described just above. We both took advantage of a fantastic sale on DD so my "Dan Wesson" really didn't cost any more than my ArmaLite but I'm fairly confident it is a better rifle.

    Still the ArmaLite has been 100% reliable for two years and I'm keeping her. Is it less combat proven than DD or BCM or Colt? Probably but I feel pretty good when I slap a magazine in it. It will be interesting over the years to see how they stack up against each other. Basically I have a chart (THE CHART) topping AR and one that falls in the middle of the pack.

    Good luck with whatever you choose!
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  12. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

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    Quentin is very efficient in his explanation as normal.

    I am however against the "snob" classification. Sometimes I feel its a defensive thing to call people "snobs."
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  13. diggsbakes

    diggsbakes New Member

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    My first build was a BCM and I thought it was a well balanced decision as I paid $600 for a complete upper, minus hand-guards, which was OK since I wanted something else anyways. After a poor experience with a gunsmith that worked on the gun, I was able to get it back on track and it now is my best shooter. I have no problem effectively engaging 12" steel targets at 200 yds. It is their 14.5" mid length. It is light and recoil is incredibly moderate. :)
     
  14. doctherock

    doctherock New Member

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    Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
     
  15. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Y'know a little googling on how RRA ARs have performed for the DEA is enlightening. Lots of negatives, lots of problems attributed to out of spec BCGs, improperly staked carrier keys and castle nuts, nonfunctional FCGs, poorly dremeled M4 feed ramps, tight chambers, 4140 barrel steel and even non-chromed barrels being substituted for spec'ed 4150 chrome-lined, red loctite on castle keys, improper torquing and overall lack of quality control. I also found some reports that of the issue guns that LEOs bring to hard use training classes, RRA has one of the highest failure rates. (And which have the lowest? BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense and S&W, to name a few.)

    No doubt that RRA will perform fine for 90+% of civilian buyers but their track record for a duty gun is suspect. I don't know that they deserve any extra merit as being "combat proven".
     
  16. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    Thanks for the info Quentin. So why do you think the DEA went with the RRA over Colt? Don't they have weapon tests to determine which one would be best for duty carry.

    Also, I wasn't bashing BCM as a company, I love my BCM upper. I was just wondering what Combat Proven meant.
     
  17. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I've heard the DEA went with RRA because of a lowball bid. And RRA served up the lowball so they could hype the fact that govt LE agencies use their ARs. No doubt there may be more to the story.

    Also no doubt that your LE buddies are giving good advice, at least from their perspective. Thing is they see it as a life or death decision, their duty gun must perform this time, every time. Maybe you don't need that kind of reliability but why not demand it when the cost of a BCM really isn't much different than RRA or Bushmaster.
     
  18. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

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    Everyone knows the above info. It makes me shake my head when a agency like the DEA puts BM's in the hands of their employees. Setting them up for failure in my eyes. However, a good smith can do wonders from the info Ive come across.

    I like Colt, I just like midlengths more.
     
  19. 556plinker

    556plinker New Member

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  20. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

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