Combat Accuracy vs Target Shooting

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by SargeC4, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. SargeC4

    SargeC4 New Member

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    What are everybody’s thoughts on combat accuracy vs target shooting. What level accuracy versus speed of shooting is acceptable in a self defense scenario?
     
  2. RJF22553

    RJF22553 Well-Known Member

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    Never cared for target shooting. the only bench my Mini has seen is my workbench, while cleaning it. Combat accuracy to me is all I expect to achieve, and that is related to coffee creamer bottles at 50 yards. When I do shoot in earnest, it is often with coffee creamer bottles set up in a "platoon wedge" formation at 50 yards. Lots of fun and probably good training, too. If I can knock down 40 bottles in less than two minutes, I'm satisfied (other than having to go out and set them up again).
     
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  3. Resto

    Resto Member

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    The only way Ive been able to establish any baseline to measure my "Combat Accuracy" was Marine Basic and a Gunsite course. I Highly Recommend Gunsite. I thought I was fairly Good before. After that Gunsite Course my Confidence level went through the roof. They run you through a wringer up there.
     
  4. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    accurate shot placement trumps speed every time IMO. if you are able to get lots of shots on target in very speedy manner, then good for you. most people unless they practice a lot, and i mean a lot, or participate in some sort of competition shooting are not going to be able to get off a lot of shots and hit accurately.

    and in the real world, you better factor in the increased stress levels, adrenaline flowing, increased breathing, sweating and the blood pounding in your ears that are factors that you are going to have to contend with.

    want to know what it like in the real world and having to get off shots when your life depends upon them, talk to a combat vet, or a LE officer who has been in a shootout.

    then factor in that in an attack, i think the majority of them happen at 15 feet or less, from what i read, and the average number of round expended were about 3-5 shots.
     
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  5. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Dallas is absolutely correct. The whole thing depends on a lot of factors.
    1. Being proper training: Which includes, a. using the Same Weapon, b. carrying it in the Same Place, c.*Developing Muscle Memory (one of the most important factors)
    This Muscle Memory takes a vast amount of repetition and ammunition to develop it. If not you will not reach proper proficiency. d. Mental mind set! Which means in a split second you must be able to identify a threat and react. e. You will do as you have trained! You will not have time to think it over first and make a decision or you or someone else involved will most likely be a victim. f. As stated, you must push yourself when training (Being Safe!) because in a real confrontation you will also be dealing with "Adrenalin" and possibly Fear g. As well as a lessening of your fine motor skills.
    The video was fair but one must remember shot placement is essential and tactical shooting must be done as fast as possible depending on the individuals ability and skill level.
    So to have a possible edge in a real confrontation one must train, train, train. And do repetition, repetition, repetition, to develop the Muscle Memory!
    To Draw, Proper Grip, Target Acquisition, Proper Trigger Pull, Follow Through, Speed and Accuracy of the Shot Placement! * This in no way should be close to Target Shooting. But must be quick, accurate enough, with the number of rounds needed to engage and stop a threat.
    A little drill we use to use was once an individual has gained Muscle Memory to a good level. And to build confidence! Stand at the 4 or 7 Yard Line. Shoot a few rounds on the target and holster. Without moving! Have a friend or officer blind fold you. Then on command draw and fire the weapon at least 3 rounds. Once you have achieved good Muscle Memory you will be surprised how well you can do! If you have not it will be very obvious! :rolleyes: Just keep the gun down range until the blindfold is removed!:p

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    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  6. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I see you are talking about me again! :cool: Been there on both counts (combat vet and LE shoot outs) and have the scars, memories, and medals to prove it. The one think I have learned is that all the training in the world does not INSURE a good performance when the chitt hits the fan, it does help though! Until you 'take fire' you do not know just how you will respond! But like we said, training does increase the probability you will respond properly, right Dallas??? ;)
     
  7. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    People think at different speeds, and think differently too.
    Training might help some.....is a lost cause on others.
    Some folks do well without training.
    I'm nobody special, and shoot OK.
    Can do it kinda fast too.

    Watch people handle guns.........some are comfortable/fluid..........the item an extension.
    Others it's a fight from the get go.

    Some people do everything slow and deliberate........it might help them running at such speeds. But some are slow, things thought out..........and still suck.

    You see it in the dove fields, hear about it in the deer woods.
     
  8. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    I change guns and don't flub safety or bobble pumps etc.
    But I see and hear of that all the time.
    Used to work a shop w a range.

    Grip safeties are no big deal. All my rigs are such they are placed in same area, and work in same direction. If a gun doesn't have one, you sweep like it does anyway .........yet some folks consider a safety a liability.

    Maybe for them it is. That to me seems to show a lack of thinking power..........maybe it's too much keyboard. I dunno..........been around a lot of supposed shooters and hear all sorts of things.

    We've dumbed down as a society, and are dumbing down on guns me thinks.........but that's another kettle of fish.

    The "everybody needs to go to college" thing.........I put in the "training training training" group.
    It does help some, but wont help others. And there are exceptions to everything.
    "Institutions" are not created equal, variability is huge, in the faculty and students.

    Another kettle that is ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  9. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    Do think it wise to push one's self as a shooter.
    A little stress aint a bad thing to check out.
     
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  10. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    Some folks get a lot out of a course. Some don't.
    Can't fault a course based on that.
    Buddy took big name courses.
    I blew his doors off without even trying.
    Hate to say it.........but that might have been what made him get out of shooting.
    That's on him, not me.

    IMHO it's good to shoot with better people. It gives you a goal...........I gotta beat this guy, move up a class, then go after that guy ;)
     
  11. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    I've taken quite a few professional Carbine courses outside the military and many of them were better than the in-military training..
    And I strongly encourage everybody to go to as a bare minimum one professional handgun course and one professional "Carbine" course to form a foundation..and to do it soon while we still have these freedoms.

    However its unaffordable to go every month right?

    So the current Carbine/Rifle course a buddy and I have designed for our group of Freedomistas looks about like this:
    A square 120 yard long (to practice peeling from flanking fire, using the "classic" barrel method of fire and movement ;) ) and about 100 yards deep.
    100 yards is about the upper limit one should train reflexive fire with the Carbine.
    There are 6 pairs of steel targets which we number 1-6 ;)

    One of the core exercises for us is to stand in the middle and then its approx a 120 degree range.
    You enter the range will full mag in the gun and wearing full battle rattle (as a minimum a combat load of ammo, whichever how many mags u decide that ought to be, plus your med kit plus your water, I will sometimes wear a ballistic FAST helmet or sometimes just a bump helmet)

    The Safety calls out your Targets.
    You shoot single targets (warm up) or in pairs or in triplets (capstone) depending what he decides to call but usually its a progression.
    All targets must be hit twice to "count". Ring! Ring!

    Some targets at max range.. we sometime designate them a "prone" target ( I know some keyboard warrior will write "oh but 100 yards is too short!".. not for reflexive fire it isnt) some are a foot off the ground behind a mound and sometimes we designate them a kneeling target.
    This way we are forcing the trainee (which is what he is) to not just break aim left to right and up and down.. but to break position and then reaquire and reaim.

    So for Example during the Capstone heats, you may have the safety yell "2,6,3!"

    So your first target, "2" you are generally allowed to respond to from standing/walking from the Patrol ready position. This is realistic right? You get surprised patrolling your area or leading your family out of dogde.. you will execute a RTR drill ( return fire, take cover, return accurate fire) were the immediate counterfire is designed to throw off the attacker and force his head down.

    Then the next target "6" may be our designated prone target, which also fits with the RTR drill because after your initial reflex fire..you will have taken cover (even if its just microcover .. such as a curb or good cover like a nice big rock) and shoot from prone..
    The "3" target may be designated a "kneeling" target.. again very realistic.. when you are shooting in the real world its not always perfectly flat like on a SWAT range (snicker) so some enemy you can only continue to force the engagment when you raise your aiming position to shoot over whatever he is behind that covers or conceals him.

    Dont underestimate how physically demanding it can be to shoot.. then sprint a few feet... drop to prone.. hit the steel twice... explode from the prone into the kneeling (exercise your core!!) and then hit the steel twice.

    Soon we will add a drill shooting at targets from moving vehicle (for practicality it will be an ATV but that serves its training purpose).

    Sometimes (not often because its bit of hassle moving uprooted bushes around) we also practice Rhodesian cover shooting (shooting into concealment to hit whats hiding behind)

    Why all this effort when a pistol engagement w/ petty criminals is much more likely?
    Because fighting enemies foreign or domestic will be hard.. fighting petty criminals is easy in comparison.

    People, short of attending Max Velocity Tactical in WV,or similar outfits (Mason Dixon Tactical in PA, Defensive Training group, Green Ops in VA) this is what right looks like for tactical training/practice for Carbine/Rifle for a citizen...
    That's why I put it out here, ...source: former Battalion Training Officer in Combat Arms, multiple post military courses taught by the best.

    Also food for your thoughts:

     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  12. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Speed and accuracy are co-equal. Neither is any good without the other.
     
  13. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    i agree. but if i had to sacrifice one, it would be speed.
     
  14. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    simple fact is, i'm old, have health issues that would prevent me from being fast on the draw, but my trigger finger still works quite well, and as such i can't do much about getting faster, but i can still hit accurately.

    and also as i get older, if i'm at home, it's just more likely that i would be armed with a shotgun rather than a pistol or carbine. yes, shotguns do need to be still aimed, but they require less precision than either the pistol or carbine. and even a hit with a round of buckshot at close range to just an extremity rather than center mass is still going to massive amounts of damage.

    i concentrate on what i can do better at, and do what i can to compensate for my weakness'. so i have worked on my weak hand shooting and point shooting for some time now.
     
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  15. Greg_r

    Greg_r Well-Known Member

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    Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry. These words, or something like them are attributed to Wyatt Earp. I think these are smart words. Mr Earp shot cowboys, I shoot bowling pins. In either situation accuracy will always win, as long as you are not too slow.

    Hunting and bullseye shooting is different althogeter. I see no real need for speed, except maybe for rabbits and birds. Even then, accuracy is more important. I tag out on deer every year. Most are taken from the back field shooting from the barn loft. One shot, never needed a second. Some were bang-flop, DRT, some were not, but in no case have I ever had a deer make it back to the tree line. Accuracy.

    Which brings me to the other topic that has surfaced in this thread. Familiarity. Practice and you will do what you teach yourself without thinking if the time comes. I believe that, but my experience has been somewhat different.

    Anytime I have been in a situation where I am in a situation to be placed in harm, thinking becomes very clear. Not in a time has stopped I can dodge bullets Matrix kind of thing, time still goes by fast, but in a I have time to think am I doing everything right kind of thing. I have had this happen to me a half dozen times or so. The first time when I lost control of a car, the last time was a home invasion. I recall such events vividly. And the after effect is akin to buck fever. Where you take a few minutes to recollect yourself. I always thought it was an adrenaline thing, but most ridicule me saying you can't remember. So I normally just stay mum.

    This thread just got me thinking about it, and I felt like talking about it. Let the flaming begin.
     
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  16. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    No flame.
    Thinking has always been crystal clear when it's gotten scary.
    BTW, I don't get buck fever.
    After I shoot my deer..........yeah, sometimes I get a little woogie.

    BTW, I take about half my deer from the ground. Still hunting or leaving a treestand to go after 'em.
     
  17. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    Used to shoot a fair bit, reload/test/experiment....had quite a few rigs over the years.....so a lot of bench time.

    Didn't hurt me being fast on critters or other target games at all.
    Maybe it helped? I dunno.

    See no negative in shooting tiny groups repeatedly.

    Confidence is hard to measure, but I think it a damn fine thing to have.
     
  18. Hookeye

    Hookeye Well-Known Member

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    Had a big post about hunting success and shot mentality......etc
    Edited down to this LOL:

    Some people shoot at stuff, hope to just hit it.

    Others take shots knowing they will land on the money.
     
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  19. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

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    hunting and self defense shootings are two different and completely scenarios.

    i was taught not to take a shot in hunting unless i was 110% sure i could make a quick and humane kill.

    in a self defense situation i couldn't care one way or the other if i hit my target. my primary goal is surviving alive and well. but i also realize that hitting the intended target may be necessary in order to survive. if the mere presentation, or getting a round off disrupts the attack, or deters intended attack, then my gun has done it's intended job.
     
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  20. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I teach is, "As fast as you can, as slow as you have to"!;)
     
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