Col

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by Hot Sauce NARC, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Hot Sauce NARC

    Hot Sauce NARC New Member

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    when i read reloading tables for .223 they give a col for that particular load, and i know i should never mix and match infor from different loads or anything like that. What i want to know is can i take a specified load and just play with the seating depth without catastrophic problems ?
     
  2. hunter Joe

    hunter Joe New Member

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    In my single shot rifle I seat the bullets so they are around .010 of the lands. You can't get away with this in a magazine fed rifle because the bullets will not fit into the mag. Seating lower than the C.O.L should not pose any pressure issues because I load a compressed load in my .223, although, I could be wrong.
     

  3. masterPsmith

    masterPsmith New Member

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    There would be no problem with adjusting the OAL. The listings in the guides are a reference length. You can adjust it to your particular rifle and/or magazines with no affect on the performance of the round..

    Jim...................
     
  4. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    I do this also in my bolt rifles. Redding makes a competition seater that works well for me. The Redding part # is 55111 for the .223 cal. They also make the competition die sets and shell holders. The competition shell holders come in +.002", .004", .006", .008", and .010". The stock shell holder would be 0.00 of course. With these comp. shell holders you can change the clearance on the shoulder as well.
     
  5. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    To get the most accuracy out of my bolt action rifles I used to spray a bullet with spotting compound and chamber it to see where the rifling contacted the bullet. This was my seating depth. Many benchrest shooters claim that the jump to the rifling can upset accuracy. I don't know if this is true, but I do know that personally my accuracy improved when I seated my bullets out several thousanths. Of course the guns I have are old milsurp and probably have some throat erosion...
     
  6. 1hole

    1hole New Member

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    "...they give a col for that particular load, and i know i should never mix and match infor from different loads or anything like that..."

    "They" picked an OAL that worked for their test rifle and developed the data you see. None of it is a "law" to be slavishly followed or you die. If that were so they would only give ONE charge level instead of a "min" to "max" range, or need to tell you to start low and only move up IF no pressure signs occur. Reloading simply IS NOT all that predictable.

    You, and many others, are over looking the biggest single element in any load: the weapon it's fired in. No other component or OAL change is going to have as much impact on the book's data as that one, mandatory, change! Thus, you can change any bullet, case, primer or OAL you need to and use ANY book data as a generic thing for the bullet weight while working up your load as you go.

    In other words, YES, change the OAL as you wish once you learn enough to know what you're doing.

    Finally, seating into the lands is for BR rifles, and not all of them. Factory rifles rarely shoot best when loaded at or into the lands.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  7. fprefect

    fprefect New Member

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    Cartridge Length

    If you don't plan to use the magazine, you can pretty much seat the bullet to any depth you want as the best accuracy will usually be obtained by seating the bullet to a depth where it just touches the lands or is a few thousandths of a inch away from the lands. However this will usually produce a cartridge that is too long for use in the magazine

    Also loading to where the bullet touches the lands usually produces slightly higher pressures and in some cases, only a small additional amount of powder can produce a "spike" in pressures, so work up to higher velocity loads slowly. But if you occasionally shoot at your club's benchrest competitions, try a few of these long rounds, which will in most cases, give you the tightest groups with most rifles.

    F. Prefect
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  8. Hot Sauce NARC

    Hot Sauce NARC New Member

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    thanks guys all good info here. I got my dies last night from midway (rcbs competition .223) both dies were clearly labled as 223 but when i tried to size my first round it stuck about 3/8 of an inch from the bottom of the die and i couldnt free it for anything. yes i used lube wd-40, (is that a reatrd move) but it stuck and i destroyed the resizer die getting it out :mad: I dont know if it was the wrong size, or was it somthing with my brass, or is wd-40 like case glue or somthing? I have no Idea, but i am rather sure midway wont take the sizer die back now :D
     
  9. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    WD-40 is not a lube, it is a water displacing liquid that is advertised as a lubricant. Really bad move, but not hopeless. You will need to get a stuck case remover, I use the one available from RCBS. Get the case yanked out and use a proper case lube. Many are available from RCBS, Hornaday, MidwayUSA, etc. I like Rig lube +P. It is actually a gun grease but has very good high pressure properties and works very well for .223 sizing. Midway Minute Lube works pretty good, too.

    Live and learn. We have all made some dumb-ass mistakes when learning all there is to learn. If I had a dime for every .223 case I stuck in a sizing die, I could but a new sizing die.
     
  10. fprefect

    fprefect New Member

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    Are you saying you now have the case removed and in doing so destroyed the resizing die? If the case is still in the die, Robocop10mm's suggestion will work and the tool can be used to remove other cases should this happen again.

    I'm old fashioned and prefer the case lube that comes packaged in a toothpaste type tube and you apply it to a case lube pad (it's kind of like a dense sponge) and in order to full length resize the case you simple roll the case across the pad until it is full covered with lube. However too much lube can cause air bubbles to form between the die and case with the only result being a destroyed case. You'll get the hang of how much to use with time. Also it's a good idea to clean the inside of the sizing die as sometimes some dirt and grit can find it's way into the unused die and cause a case to be difficult to resize. There is also an aerosol spray lube that works well, but I tend to spray the darn stuff everywhere, thus I still use the old fashioned case lube. Midway has always been a good company to deal with, but don't be surprised if the die was damaged and you told them what was used as a lube, that you have to buy a new sizer. Hopefully they will let you replace only the sizer and not have to buy the full set.

    WD 40. That may become your temporary nickname for a while.:D But don't let it turn you against reloading. We all made mistakes during the first few weeks, so you have plenty of company.

    F. Prefect
     
  11. 1hole

    1hole New Member

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    "i used lube wd-40, (is that a reatrd move)"


    !!!! It sure ain't case sizing lube...
     
  12. Hot Sauce NARC

    Hot Sauce NARC New Member

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    CRAP........alright thanks for that guys.

    To answer your question the rod that screws down the middle of the resizer lost a little metal sizer piece into the stuck case when i pulled the rod out so when i stuck a screwdriver inside the case to tap it out of the sizer it destroyed the little round metal (neck sizer?) piece that had fallen in. O and i also screwed up most of the threads on just about everything else when i was pissed off last night working on it :D For lack of a better techinical or engineering term, the whole thing is F**ked so im probably just going to buy a new sizer from midway. Ive used a LEE set before and the sizer was easy to use and they sell just the sizer so i think ill go that direction unless there are better suggestions
     
  13. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Consider a Dillon sizer die. I wore out my original RCBS small base sizer and upgraded to the Dillon. You can order just the sizer directly from Dillion Precision.

    The Dillon die is small base configuration. The Dillon also has a built in stuck case remover and Dillon's famous NO BS guarantee.
     
  14. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    WD-40 WOW!
    When you get your new die, thouroughly clean it before you use it as the factory may have put a preservitive type lube on the die to curtail corrosion. If so you will need get this stuff out. Also dont get any lube on the neck and shoulder of the case when applying and use sizing lube very sparingly. If you dont have one you might consider getting a Universal de-cap die. I usually de-cap primers then clean brass in vibratory cleaner with corn cob media, inspect brass casings for cracks, splits pitting or corrosion, and excessive case bulges. I then clean primer pockets and de-bur fire slot hole in case. Then is when I apply resize lube to case and inside neck, resize case, trim neck to legneth, if necessary, and throw back into vibratory cleaner for awhile to get sizing die lube off casings.
     
  15. Hot Sauce NARC

    Hot Sauce NARC New Member

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    sweet, and also damit. More equipment needed !

    i knew i was going to need another die but i was going to try and skate by with out buying a case tumbler for a while but oh well overtime is good for now. What about a case trimmer? how bad do i need a trimmer?
     
  16. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Those case tumblers arn't that much money. I paid around $75.00 for my RCBS vibratory case cleaner. Besides it makes the brass look sooooo good when they are cleaned. The corn cob media is just under $20.00 a box and you can use it for quite a long time. The primer pocket cleaner should have come with your press if you bought it in the kit form and the fire slot deburing tool is only a few dollars and so is the pocket cleaner if you dont have one. The money you pay for these items now will pay off in spades over time. Midway ought to have even better prices than I paid for mine. Plus as you progress in your reloading skills the accuracy of your loads should be considerably more accurate than off the shelf factory ammo. Some say that your case neck will need to be trimmed about every 3 reloads or so. I check mine everytime I resize; some need it and some dont. I have beaucoup quanity of .308 Win. brass I've saved for many years, actually almost a garbage can full and I do batches of large quanity reloads for this caliber. What I find is that the quality of the brass dictates more than anything else how much and how often the case needs to be trimmed. For my .300 Win. Mag. target rifle, I bought all new Nozler brass for this endevour and find that even though it needs to be trimmed almost every reload it usually isnt very much to trim. Nozler is fairly high quality brass and you can get an amazing number of reloads with this brass. Not so much for most factory load commercial brass. I use the RCBS Trim Mate Case prep center only because I may do a batch of a thousand or so .308 Win. in a reload run. I also use the RCBS Trim Pro Power case trimmer. Again because I reload large quanities at a time of this .308 Win. ammo. The little hand tool than holds your primer pocket cleaner and fire slot deburing tool will work just fine and save you alot of money to begin with. Also, you dont need a power case trimmer, a hand crank style will work just fine to begin with as well.

    I assume that you at least have a vernier caliper to measure your lenghts and diameters of your ammo as you are reloading it. A good dial indicator with a base is also good to have as well. I perfer the analog read out guages over the digital guages and they all measure to the thousandths (3 points or digits past the decimal point) I use Starrett brand measuring devices as they are extremely good, however, most reload companies have their own and are usually just fine.

    IMO you should always reload with extreme precision as to be safe and improve the accuracy of your ammo.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  17. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Don't buy any more equipment for a few days. i made a bid this weekend on a BUNCH of stuff. If I get the bid, I will have many things you will need up for sale. I am willing to give you first crack.

    Note to JD; There is a bunch of Sinclair stuff in this batch that you might be interested in.
     
  18. Hot Sauce NARC

    Hot Sauce NARC New Member

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  19. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    The best and easiest lube I have found is Lyman Case Lube in a spray. Lubes must be non-reactive with powder and primers, this is why you should never use a commercial lubricant. I made a loading block from a 2 x 3 by drilling two rows of parallel holes the same size as my largest case rim. Place the cleaned cases in the holes and lightly spray both sides. Then get a q-tip saturated with lube and lube the insides of the necks. Now you are ready to resize. Lee dies work great and are guaraneed against breakage. They will also remove hopelessly stuck cases if you send them the die. I have broken several decapping pins over the years by depriming military brass with crimped primers. Lee has always mailed me replacement pins for free. I have even broken hardened manual decapping tools trying to deprime military cases - some of them are just not worth messing with. Buy a tumbler - it is money well spent. I use mine to pre-clean cases (before sizing) to keep crap out of the dies and make sizing easier, and then again after sizing to clean lube off the cases. Use Walnut media instead of corn cob - it is harder, lasts longer, and requires much less tumbling time. It's the same price as corncob media.
     
  20. BILLYBOB44

    BILLYBOB44 New Member

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    Case sticking problems.

    As all have said-been there/done that. I tore the head off of one of the first 22-250Rem. when I first started. You can buy a stuck case remover, or you can make one. Once you have used one-piece of cake. If you only load .223,you can get by with a file-type trim die. After sizing case, install in file trim die, and file off any brass above the die. They can be had on e-bay for $10-15.00. I have an older RCBS rotary trimmer, with the collets,pilots for the cals. that I load, and I still prefer the file-type trim die instead. I have the file-type trim die in:.223,22-250,.243Win.,6MM Rem.and .308Win. I like the Dillon case lube, myself/but each to his own on that. PM me if you want Sauce, and I'll try to help you in any way that I can. PS: Call MidWay-tell them what happened-they and RCBS are GOOD people, they probably will send you a new sizer die/have you send the damaged one back. By the way the file type trim die IS a lot slower than the rotary to use.:)