I was always told to clean until the patch comes out clean. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear "clean", I think of a nice, white patch with no trace of gray, brown, or any other funky color. To achieve that state of "clean" in any of my center-fire rifles (Sako Vixen .222, Remington 700 .22-250, Rossi .357) takes what seems to me to be an inordinatel amount of time and material. The last time I cleaned the .22-250, I think I went through a couple dozen patches and a measurable amount of a bottle of Butch's Bore Shine. I can run wet & dry patches through until they come out almost completely clean, then run a wet brush through a few times -- and the next patch is jet black. Sheesh, back to scrubbing. Tonight I tried a Boresnake, with some BBS on the front end of it. After 8-10 passes I tried a wet patch to see how clean the bore was. Not even close. Sure, it looks nice & shiny, but the patch comes out black, and after a couple of passes with a wet bore brush it was REALLY black. A dozen wet patches later and now I'm down to a light blue color, so it's sitting for a while with a wet bore before I finish it off. I've always thought "clean" meant that final patch put a light oil film on bare metal with no trace of carbon or copper on it. Is my idea of clean just way too anal, or is it reasonable to expect to use a couple dozen patches, half an ounce or more of solvent and a good 45 minutes of scrubbing to get the bore completely clean?