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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, I plan on loading 308 Winchester using IMR 4064, 201M primers, Federal and LC brass. I see this calls for Federal brass but do not know the difference between charge weight vs explosive wt and do not want to make a mistake. Does anyone out here know for sure what these are and can tell me if I can use the same load in LC as I plan on doing with Federal. I see a lot
242059
of do's and don't out here but who knows what to believe.
 

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Okay, I plan on loading 308 Winchester using IMR 4064, 201M primers, Federal and LC brass. I see this calls for Federal brass but do not know the difference between charge weight vs explosive wt and do not want to make a mistake. Does anyone out here know for sure what these are and can tell me if I can use the same load in LC as I plan on doing with Federal. I see a lot View attachment 242059 of do's and don't out here but who knows what to believe.
What type of card is that? Is it some military spec? It shows to be 12 years old. YIKES! Don't go by that card!
If I were you I would buy a current reloading manual and go by what it shows for powders and recommended loads per each bullet weight you use. Hogdon has an online manual with all their and IMR powders and recommended loads for free.
 

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STOP.
Either go to the website for the company that makes the powder you want to use, or get a good loading manual.

Your card is a military spec sheet that includes classification info for shipping. Also please show me on that sheet where it says .308. If it does, I need to get my glasses checked. .308 is NOT 7.62 NATO.

There ARE some .308 loads that use 175 gr Sierra Match King bullets and IMR 4064- that with the right rifle, can shoot sub MOA groups. But please go look those up. Myself, I like Lyman and Hornady manuals, but that is a matter of taste.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
STOP.
Either go to the website for the company that makes the powder you want to use, or get a good loading manual.

Your card is a military spec sheet that includes classification info for shipping. Also please show me on that sheet where it says .308. If it does, I need to get my glasses checked. .308 is NOT 7.62 NATO.

There ARE some .308 loads that use 175 gr Sierra Match King bullets and IMR 4064- that with the right rifle, can shoot sub MOA groups. But please go look those up. Myself, I like Lyman and Hornady manuals, but that is a matter of taste.
What is the difference between ( charge wt and explosive wt ) as shown on the card and what round has higher SAMMI pressure 308 or NATO
 

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The explosive weight is the total weight of the contents minus bullets and brass in a shipping container. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of powder per cartridge; it is the total powder and primers weight per container of loaded ammunition. As mentioned by others, do not use this as any sort of load data. Get a good book or use online data....this is not load data!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The explosive weight is the total weight of the contents minus bullets and brass in a shipping container. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of powder per cartridge; it is the total powder and primers weight per container of loaded ammunition. As mentioned by others, do not use this as any sort of load data. Get a good book or use online data....this is not load data!
Okay, I just wonder why this is being said since it shows what the load is, what powder to use, the bullet, brass, primer etc and form my understanding this is a M116 load which is good for M1A which I hear had issues with a bar that use to break if it got to much gas pressure. Wouldn't this mean this is a low pressure load to where is a M1A can take the pressure a 308 surely should. The one book I do have should the 308 max load for 4064 is ( 39.5 to 41.3 gr.) and I have read out here on one of the post where some said 41.7 gr was making a clover leaf group at 100 yards. Then I have another book that says max load should be 39 gr of 4064. What in the world is anyone to believe. I guess I'm back to the same question. Is 7.62 NATO a higher pressure cartridge than a 308 Winchester
 

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Okay, I just wonder why this is being said since it shows what the load is, what powder to use, the bullet, brass, primer etc and form my understanding this is a M116 load which is good for M1A which I hear had issues with a bar that use to break if it got to much gas pressure. Wouldn't this mean this is a low pressure load to where is a M1A can take the pressure a 308 surely should. The one book I do have should the 308 max load for 4064 is ( 39.5 to 41.3 gr.) and I have read out here on one of the post where some said 41.7 gr was making a clover leaf group at 100 yards. Then I have another book that says max load should be 39 gr of 4064. What in the world is anyone to believe. I guess I'm back to the same question. Is 7.62 NATO a higher pressure cartridge than a 308 Winchester
The data card you are referencing does show a charge of 41.75, which works out correctly if you use the round count and total pounds of powder and do the math (though it actually works out to 42). No, 7.62 NATO is not higher pressure than .308 Win. And, again, I would work your loads us from current published data intended for reloading applications, which that shipping data card is not intended. That is why the math works out to 42, but it lists a 41.75 charge weight. It is shipping weights.

41.7 is about tops for an M1A, but Sierra shows 42.8 max and Hodgdon shows even higher for .308. Your book reference sounds like Hornady. BTW, none of the info on that card refers to a cartridge overall length, which is sorta helpful when reloading so you at least know where to start from.
 

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Also, get manuals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
The data card you are referencing does show a charge of 41.75, which works out correctly if you use the round count and total pounds of powder and do the math (though it actually works out to 42). No, 7.62 NATO is not higher pressure than .308 Win. And, again, I would work your loads us from current published data intended for reloading applications, which that shipping data card is not intended. That is why the math works out to 42, but it lists a 41.75 charge weight. It is shipping weights.

41.7 is about tops for an M1A, but Sierra shows 42.8 max and Hodgdon shows even higher for .308. Your book reference sounds like Hornady. BTW, none of the info on that card refers to a cartridge overall length, which is sorta helpful when reloading so you at least know where to start from.
The data for the 308 came from a Sierra Manual 6th edition, I acquired some LC once fired brass, sized them in a 308 precision dies set, trimmed them to length and primed them with federal 210M. Just to see if 41.7 grain fit in the LC case I did so and there seem to be room for the 175 gr hpbtmk without compressing the powder. There was a post out here that said 41.7 was the M116 load but I can't find it any more, don't know how they acquired that information and again it looks like that exceeds what the manual says .4 gr. Do you still think this 41.7 gr of 4064 is an unsafe load for a 308 using LC brass. In the meantime while I was waiting on an answer I read this 7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester Ammo, What’s The Difference? but I did not see if the shoulder angle on the 7.62 NATO and 308 Wincheter is the same but I'm going to assume because I sized the LC brass in a 308 die that took care of the issue. BTW, what does the # like 11, 13, 14, 12 stamped on the LC brass mean? Is this the year it was manufactured. If so is LC required to keep the brass sizes consistent no matter what year it was manufactured? BTW My LC brass does not say 7.62 on it anywhere, just LC and the a # like 11,13,14, 12 so is this once fired 7.62 or once fire 308?
 

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Typically .308 Win is loaded a bit hotter but both use the same case. LC case sizes are determined by SAAMI specs, which have not changed for either .308 or 7.62 NATO. Yes, as far as I know the number on LC brass indicates the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Typically .308 Win is loaded a bit hotter but both use the same case. LC case sizes are determined by SAAMI specs, which have not changed for either .308 or 7.62 NATO. Yes, as far as I know the number on LC brass indicates the year.
My LC brass does not say 7.62 on it anywhere, just LC and the a # like 11,13,14, 12 so is this once fired 7.62 or once fire 308?
 

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The best way to get the most accurate load for a given cartridge/rifle is to carefully work up your own loads from established load data...you seem intent on grabbing the magic load or something. I am not trying to be sarcastic, but you seem obsessed with this 4064 load that may or may not be worth the effort for your rifle. LC brass is good brass...work up a load!
 

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My LC brass does not say 7.62 on it anywhere, just LC and the a # like 11,13,14, 12 so is this once fired 7.62 or once fire 308?
What difference does it make? It is likely 7.62 x 51... Resize, trim, (may have to ream primer pocket to remove lip from NATO brass), prime and work up loads from your Sierra data. Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The best way to get the most accurate load for a given cartridge/rifle is to carefully work up your own loads from established load data...you seem intent on grabbing the magic load or something. I am not trying to be sarcastic, but you seem obsessed with this 4064 load that may or may not be worth the effort for your rifle. LC brass is good brass...work up a load!
Yeah, 4064 is all I have and can't get anything else now. Heck I can't even get primers, bullets or powder and have been told by the vendors I go to nothing will be available to Aug of 2021. I also noticed there's a lot of price gouging going on by those who do have some of these components in stock. Yes, I am a magic load gobbler and do not want to spend forever or hundreds of dollars trying to get a bullet to go in the same hole at 100 yards. In my 700R5 and TAC 21 I actually found that 168 gr hpbtmk factory federal ammo shot 1/2 MOA but at $47 a box of 20 I just could not afford that since I usually shot 60 - 100 rds per visit to the range and am not happy if I'm not shooting 1/2 MOA. This is what I want from the 175 gr so I can start reaching out beyond 400 yards and maybe someday out to 1000 yards. This is only to see if I can not. No hunting and no competitive class F shooting for me. Just stock off the shelf rifles to see what I can do and they can do.
 

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Yeah, 4064 is all I have and can't get anything else now. Heck I can't even get primers, bullets or powder and have been told by the vendors I go to nothing will be available to Aug of 2021.
For a price, most everything's available somewhere. Of course, that's nothing you don't already know.


I've acquired a few items via GunBroker, recently, along with a couple of fleeting instances of components at some of the larger online retailers. But it's not 3yr old pricing, anymore. And very possibly won't be for the next year or two. But if you're patient for the "right" situation where a popular product has temporarily met with buyers who've gobbled up enough, you can occasionally score a reasonable price on some of the "No Reserve" items.

I've also headed to nearly every major online retailer of components and supplied my email address for notification of when items get in stock. Works well. In the past year, I've had a handful of items come available, and I've gotten it on the couple of occasions that I've reacted quickly enough to such email "blasts" to waiting customers.


Of the load data lists at HodgdonReloading.com, Vihtavuori and Sierra's 5th Ed. manual, for example, there are numerous powders listed for likely loads, including specific "accuracy" loads. Many of these powers are available, just not at lovely prices.

Hodgdon's Reloading Center -- Reloading Data Center

Vihtavuori -- Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Sierra, from their 5th Ed. manual -- https://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/sierra308Win.pdf


Wish there were better news. I'm just getting into reloading, myself. So, yeah, it's a crappy time to be building stores of components for that. Still looking for the "flush" estate sale where the surviving family just wants it gone. Not too many of those around.
 

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Yeah, 4064 is all I have and can't get anything else now. Heck I can't even get primers, bullets or powder and have been told by the vendors I go to nothing will be available to Aug of 2021. I also noticed there's a lot of price gouging going on by those who do have some of these components in stock. Yes, I am a magic load gobbler and do not want to spend forever or hundreds of dollars trying to get a bullet to go in the same hole at 100 yards. In my 700R5 and TAC 21 I actually found that 168 gr hpbtmk factory federal ammo shot 1/2 MOA but at $47 a box of 20 I just could not afford that since I usually shot 60 - 100 rds per visit to the range and am not happy if I'm not shooting 1/2 MOA. This is what I want from the 175 gr so I can start reaching out beyond 400 yards and maybe someday out to 1000 yards. This is only to see if I can not. No hunting and no competitive class F shooting for me. Just stock off the shelf rifles to see what I can do and they can do.
I understand. 4064 will do ya good for now. I would still recommend working up the load, but you gotta make your choices, and I know things are difficult to get. Primers are real hard to even find, and everything else is crazy prices.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I understand. 4064 will do ya good for now. I would still recommend working up the load, but you gotta make your choices, and I know things are difficult to get. Primers are real hard to even find, and everything else is crazy prices.
I was just reading the Sierra Loading manual 5th editing fine print about 308 Winchester loads using 4064 and it said- ( "when using military brass start at 1 to 2 gr below listed min and max loads" due to case capacity.) This would put my max load for the LC brass at 41.3 gr for the 175 gr HPBTMK. I did see someone out here say 41.7 was punching a three hole clover leaf out of an M14. Sure would like to see the same results out of my 700-R5 and TAC 21. Anyway people, thanks for all the information. If I ever get a good results I'll post the pictures.
 

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I was just reading the Sierra Loading manual 5th editing fine print about 308 Winchester loads using 4064 and it said- ( "when using military brass start at 1 to 2 gr below listed min and max loads" due to case capacity.) This would put my max load for the LC brass at 41.3 gr for the 175 gr HPBTMK. I did see someone out here say 41.7 was punching a three hole clover leaf out of an M14. Sure would like to see the same results out of my 700-R5 and TAC 21. Anyway people, thanks for all the information. If I ever get a good results I'll post the pictures.
Military brass seems to be a bit thicker walled than commercial brass.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Military brass seems to be a bit thicker walled than commercial brass.
Compared to my Federal and Hornady brass it is a lot heavier. I will see how this all works out. I have noticed that my Federal brass grows in length each time I fire it and actually had two pieces get so thin at the bottom when I fire it it crack 360 degrees around. Same problem with Hornady. It's grows and I have to trim them all back to the correct length.
 

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Military brass seems to be a bit thicker walled than commercial brass.
Yes, one must be careful. Some IMI 7.62mm Nato cases are considerably thicker. About 30 years ago i tore down 100 rounds using IMI cases after getting high pressure signs.
 
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