Castle law ????

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by GREASEMONKEY, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    I live in SC, what is protected by the Castle Law.
    I have sent numerous emails to officials, but no response.
    I'm not acting on popular opinion, but would like to see what others feelings on the law is!
    The castle law states that your home, property, business,and occupied vehicle is your castle. The rights of your home are extended to the property, and your vehicle while you are in it.
    General firearms law states that you can carry a weapon concealed or open on your private property. Firearms law also states that a firearm must be in a latching compartment in your vehicle, unless you have a CWP.

    My thoughts are aimed at the automotive end of the law. If the castle law was placed in effect after the original law covering storage, or CWP carry, then what law is correct? If I do not have a CWP, and carry my weapon concealed from my home to my business, am I breaking the law?

    Not by the way I read it. My understanding is that a law placed in effect supercedes another. I am also reading that the rights of my home are extended to my vehicle, meaning that I do not have to have a CWP, and can carry open or concealed in my vehicle. I have the right to carry open, concealed, ect.. on myproperty with no CWP, so.......

    What do you think?
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    I am NOT an attorney, and am in no way qualified to offer legal advice. However, in GENERAL, the Castle Doctrine refers to your rights to defend certain places without being legally required to retreat. CONCEALED CARRY, on the other hand, refers to when and where it is legal to carry a concealed weapon. Apples and Oranges.

    You might check with your State Rifle Association, and see if they can offer some guidance.
     

  3. dirtysouth

    dirtysouth New Member

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    Go get a cwp and then you dont have to worry about it. You can carry concealed in your car and home with no problems.


    I think but not 100 % positive if you dont have a cwp and you carry concealed you will be in violation of the law were as if you carry open you would not be

    Because a Cwp is giving you the right to carry concealed on your preson were as you can not do that with open carry.

    So i would suggest maybe to lock the firearm up in the golve box till you can get an expert to tell you one way or another.
     
  4. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    I have a CWP, but this is one of those things that just interest me. The law is far from clear.

    I can carry concealed or open on my private property (without a CWP) per existing weapons laws. My question is if the castle law is broadening the scope of what is considered my private property. If my vehicle is now considered my private property, then should i not be able to carry with or without a CWP?


    I'm actually pushing the SC attourney generals office for some closure on this. I was just wondering what the general public thought.

    My problem is just as C3SHOOTER said "apples and oranges"
    One law dictates the right to defend myself, and one law dictates where I can legally carry a firearm, and how. The issue is within the definition of private property. Before every law in SC books there is a definition of the legal phrases, and words. The castle law being the newest addition to the law book, states that my occupied vehicle is private property. If the newer law has changed the definition, or coverage of what private property is, then I would assume that it ha changed the whole law book where private property is concered. That's just how I think, but it seems logical to me!
     
  5. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    I think your trying to strech the term private property. Your coat is also private property but if your carry a pistol in your coat pocket in public with out a CWP and get caught your going to jail. The castle law does not mention conleaded carry of a firearm, just the justified use of a firearm.

    Often when you press lawmakers to better define existing laws the end result will be a more restrictive law.

    I am NOT an attorney or even played one on TV, just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  6. brolin_1911a1

    brolin_1911a1 New Member

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    Greasemonkey, I believe that you are confusing two entirely different issues, the right to use deadly force in self defense, and the legal right to possess the means of doing so.

    The concept behind the Castle Doctrine laws is that one may legally use deadly force to protect against a home invasion rather than being required to flee or attempt to flee first. In many states, including my home state of Missouri, the law or the courts expect or expected one to make every effort to flee the scene without using violence. Missouri had no such law but the courts would instruct juries that such a responsibility existed. The Castle Doctrine states that no such duty exists; if one's occupied home, occupied structure, tent, or vehicle is invaded one may instantly assume a deadly threat and use deadly force to stop it. And, in Missouri at least, one is also protected against civil lawsuits resulting from such use of force.

    But none of that automatically grants you the right or privilege to legally possess the means of deadly force, i.e., the deadly weapon. That is still addressed by the concealed carry laws of your state. All the Castle Doctrine laws do is lighten the burden of using such weapons if you have them.

    The usual caveat that IANAL applies, of course.
     
  7. 1919A4

    1919A4 New Member

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    FYI, in most states, the Attorney General's office works for the state, not individual citizens, when it comes to a duty to provide legal interpretations of the law. That means that you can write or call them all you like, but you probably won't get an answer. They typically only provide legal opinions to the governor and members of the state's legislature.
     
  8. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    My coat is personal property, as defined by SC law.

     
  9. tallguy130

    tallguy130 New Member

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    Everyone should keep in mind that castle laws may differ state by state.

    You may also want to contact the county prosecutor in your area. Being the person who you come after you for breaking that law he should have a good idea of its meaning. This is easier to do if your from a rural area. (Smaller offices mean its easier to get through to people.) Same can be said of local cops.
     
  10. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

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    doctrine...
     
  11. WDB

    WDB New Member

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  12. brolin_1911a1

    brolin_1911a1 New Member

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    Castle Doctine laws, as pushed by the NRA/ILA in various states, was intended to provide protection to people who found themselves in a self defense situation. While the specific language may differ in the different state laws, the goal was to remove requirements that one first retreat before defending oneself and to provide protection from subsequent civil lawsuits following a legally justified use of deadly force. None of them addressed the question of being guaranteed the MEANS of such self defense under the Castle Doctrine laws.

    If the language of South Carolina's Castle Doctrine appears to have inadvertently overridden the state's other laws regulating weapons possession, I suspect that will be an issue to decide in court. The person making such claim had best have what Kansas City lawyer Kevin Jamison refers to as "a 55 gallon drum full of $100 bills" to cover attorney and court fees if that occurs.
     
  13. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    Your coat is personal property by SC law. Private property is described as real property in SC law.
    REAL PROPERTY - Land and all the things that are attached to it. Anything that is not real property is personal property and personal property is anything that isn't nailed down, dug into or built onto the land. A house is real property, but a dining room set is not.

    I got a response from the local police. The AG's office said it could be read many different ways, and is a grey area. Just as many here have said, it can only be decided in court. No oficial answer.

    I guess I will have to settle for that. It's a tough call, all in how you read it. Like i have said before I have a CWP, and am just curious of loop holes in the law. I don't wanna be the guy to test the theory. There are many many odd ball legal grey areas in SC law.


    It's technically still illegal to drive a motor vehicle on main street in the state capital. It scares the horses, and is punishable by a $2.50 fine, or 1day jail time. :D Yep I'm the guy that just scrolls across this stuff. Old legal books, and the web keep me occupied. :rolleyes:

    I have started another battle lately.

    The SC State Fair Grounds is a privately owned business, and does not have legally adequate signage for prohibition of concealed weapons, but the county deputies that work security at the gates refuse to let a legal armed citizen on premisis!
    The sign is huge, but only a 1" tall, 10" long single line says no concealed weapons. It's BS if ya ask me!
    Here's state law

    All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

    (1) clearly visible from outside the building;

    (2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

    (3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

    (4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

    (5) a diameter of a circle; and

    (6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

    (C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

    (1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

    (2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

    (3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

    (4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

    (5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
  14. Safetyguy

    Safetyguy New Member

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    It is your right to defend yourself and not retreat

    In your home or in your vehicle, you have the right not to retreat, you can defend your self = Castle Law. Read your State's definition.

    Definition: Concealed weapon is a weapon that is carried on your person and concealed from public view subject to law in which establishments you may conceal it and you need a concealed weapon permit to do this. Bars, & government buildings are two such places you do not want to be caught with a weapon, schools & at public meetings for your city, county, state government too.

    Weapon for self defense: A weapon kept as law allows in your home, your business, your vehicle, not on your person. Each state has their own laws on this and you best know what they are. In Florida you can keep that Glock in a shoe box on the front seat, under the unoccupied seat, console - covered, glove box. Not on your person, then it is a concealed weapon.

    Remember this: When you decide to defend your self using deadly force of any kind make sure 12 of your peers and a Judge will agree with you. And make sure you know the Attorney's name you are going to call, perhaps one the NRA might use?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  15. brolin_1911a1

    brolin_1911a1 New Member

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    Speaking from my own observations as one member of the group who crafted and steered Missouri's CCW law to passage, those premises sign requirements are so much smoke and mirrors. In states where carrying in a prohibited location is a criminal offense, then the signage requirements in the law can help you avoid being charged if the signs don't meet the legal standard. But unless specifically stated in the law there is nothing to prevent the operator of a premises with sub-standard signage from simply refusing to allow you entry. You just can't be charged with the crime of illegally carrying if the signs don't meet the legal requirements. OTOH, if that's a deputy at the door who's refusing you admission, you might find yourself charged with failing to obey a police officer if you insist on entering anyway. Standard IANAL disclaimer applies, of course. Let us know how your effort turns out.
     
  16. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    I brought it up to the local grass roots org. I'm awaiting a reply.

    BTW: CWP on school property is legal now. Well in some form any way!

    I can carry my weapon in my vehicle as i drop off my kids, but must leave it in my vehicle if exiting the vehicle.
     
  17. sausn2002

    sausn2002 New Member

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    Anybody know how it works when the state of Virginia doesn't have a Castle Doctrine? Does that mean I have to treat a hostile as if I would treat them on the street? I would like to have flexibility in a home defense situation by having a Castle Doctrine, but Virginia doesn't seem to have one.
     
  18. GREASEMONKEY

    GREASEMONKEY New Member

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    Here's a good place to research that.
    USA Carry - Open and Concealed Carry Information and Community

    I would also try to contact the NRA (join if you are not a member) and ask for assistance on the legalities. That's why they are there, to portect your rights, and know what those rights are!
     
  19. CodyWalkerJr

    CodyWalkerJr New Member

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    Get a "Firearms Law and Ownership" book for your state!!!! helped me out a lot...also a good read while I'm on the commode!!!
     
  20. Safetyguy

    Safetyguy New Member

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    Move to a State that validates your right to protect yourself clearly. That said, moving may not be an option so lobby with the NRA or some other rights group dedicated to pass that Castle Law in Virgina that your politicians keep saying you do not need because the law is clear. Right it is clear, clear that the perp that you defend against has family that will sue you. They may not win, but it will cost you lots of money to defend against. I would bet the farm that G. Washington would ha used deadly force to protect his home and land, think?

    We have to protect the Republic from the politicians. I really would like to know who decided that higher educated people had better credentials to lead us? Us -- Remember is the people. We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. Why are there "Parties"? Rich men can belong, poor men become rich and just as corrupt as the ones they replaced over time. Even the Godfather in the movie was forgiven his sins so it does not matter what you do, it matters how rich you are. Say the pledge of allegiance, " And to the REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT stands".