Can't pick up firearm at FFL

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by 89876h, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. 89876h

    89876h New Member

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    I have a hypothetical question.

    Joe purchased a firearm. Joe then sold that firearm to Bob. There was a defect with that firearm and Bob decided he wanted to return the firearm to Joe and get his money back. Joe agrees and Bob ships the firearm back to Joes FFL. When the firearm arrives at Joes FFL, Joe does not complete the transfer but first has the FFL send the firearm directly to the manufacturer for repair. The firearm is repaired and then sent back to Joes FFL again. The firearm is currently at Joes FFL.

    However, while the firearm was being repaired Joe became convicted of a felony and can no longer own or possess a firearm. Joe wants to comply with the law and does not want to break any laws or be in illegal possession. However, Joe also does not want to just let the firearm sit at the FFL.

    What are Joes options?
     
  2. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Offer it back to Bob seeing the reason for return is no longer there, or
    make an agreement with FFL to purchase, or
    arrange for another purchaser with consignment to FFL, or

    walk away and forget about the firearm left in FFL possession.

    (By the way, welcome to the firearmstalkforum.)
     

  3. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    Call a lawyer.
     
  4. 89876h

    89876h New Member

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    But wouldn't selling the firearm, either to the FFL, or to any other person via consignment be a violation of a prohibited possessor selling or transferring a firearm?
     
  5. drvsafe

    drvsafe New Member

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    Danf_fl got it right.

    On paper it's still Bob's firearm since no transfer back to Joe occurred. So Joe should reach out to Bob and make some sort of an arrangement for him to either take it back or work out a consignment with the FFL. OR Joe should see if the FFL would accept the firearm at a discount and walk away with whatever he can get.

    Needless to say, consulting with his lawyer would make sense prior to any other decisions.

    N
     
  6. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    Repair work should never be returned to the FFL to begin with ,that should have some to your door from the manufacturer. That would have solved your problem right then and there
     
  7. drvsafe

    drvsafe New Member

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    Well you know what they say about hindsight...
     
  8. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    Interesting logic problem. Let's break it down into it's smallest parts to make it easier to solve.

    The first parts of the question are irrelevant as far as I am concerned, the history of the firearm is not going to impact who the current owner is which is all that really matters.

    Bob did not "return a firearm to Joe to get his money back", Bob begins selling his firearm to Joe in exchange for money.

    Joe's FFL ships Bob's firearm to the manufacturer for repair. (Is that legal without his permission?) This is not really relevant to the legality of Joe and the gun.

    Joe then becomes ineligible to own a firearm. This is no big deal as he doesn't own or possess a firearm, the FFL is holding Bob's gun.

    In my non-expert opinion Bob's gun is sitting at an FFL's shop awaiting a transfer that will not legally occur. Can an FFL or someone who knows the federal laws explain what happens in this case? My feeling is that Bob needs to contact Joe's FFL to get his gun back because the transfer will not be occurring.

    A simpler but identical example is I try to sell a gun to Joe, the transfer is done by FFL and denied at the buyers FFL. What now happens?


    /Not a lawyer, not legal advice. If you do what I say you may end up in jail, I'm just thinking out loud.
     
  9. drvsafe

    drvsafe New Member

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    I second the whole; "I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV" thing.

    One question: Did Joe refund any money back to Bob?
     
  10. 89876h

    89876h New Member

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    Hypothetically lets say yes, the full amount of the original purchase price
     
  11. drvsafe

    drvsafe New Member

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    Ooof. I would hypothesize that that may make Bob's less motivated in his willingness to aid getting this all squared away.
     
  12. rjgnwdc

    rjgnwdc New Member Supporter

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    Ditto... this legally owned pistol can be shipped right to the repair shop they will send it back to the owner, I guess he would have to surrender it to authorities seems like:confused:
     
  13. 89876h

    89876h New Member

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    So since Joe never completed the FFL transfer on his end, it sounds like Bob is the one who actually still legally owns the firearm. As a result, it sounds like Bob gets a free firearm, right?
     
  14. drvsafe

    drvsafe New Member

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    Well hypothetically, on paper yes. But considering bob got a refund in full it would be the right thing to facilitate a way to return the funds back to Joe and then Bob should take possession of the firearm.
     
  15. Gh0zt36

    Gh0zt36 Active Member

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    Recouping repair money sounds like the least of joes problems in this instance.

    We however need more info. Was bob refunded the money ? Was the repairs paid for in full ?

    I'd offer bob the opportunity to purchase the weapon @ orig cost minus repairs if money was refunded . If refund hadn't been completed and repairs are paid in full offer the weapon back to bob with no further charge.

    If bob refuses then sell on consignment at the FFL ( if thats legal due to the fact joe is now a felon and the rifle would still technically be his ) If not sell to the FFL directly and wash the ol hands. But I'd definitely attempt to return the rifle to bob either @ orig price if refunded or at no additional charge if it wasn't
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  16. Gh0zt36

    Gh0zt36 Active Member

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    I wouldn't say that . Although a hastle for bob he would now be getting a repaired firearm for what he orig paid . If bob is stubborn and doesn't want to pay orig price + FFL Offer for orig price and pay his FFL .

    Sounds like joe would want to resolve this issue post haste even at additional loss of paying for bobs FFL . Because even though the gun is at the FFL the repairs I take it were made in joes name . If I were joe I wouldn't want that being the case.
     
  17. LibertyGunworks

    LibertyGunworks New Member

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    Quick answer: the firearm still belongs to Bob

    FFL would require name, address and usually a copy of drivers license to accept firearm from an individual. That's the only way he can accept it and log it into his A&D. The firearm belongs to whomever shipped to or dropped off the firearm with FFL. Unless a transfer is completed the firearm can be returned to the original owner, in this case without a background check or 4473 based on repair/gunsmithing.

    -The FFL will accept the firearm from individual with name, address, DL and log it in as acquisition

    -Log it out to manufacture for repair as disposition

    -Log it back in from manufacture as acquisition

    -The firearm can then be logged back out to the original person that dropped it off without doing background check or 4473

    As a side note if Joe dropped the firearm off and acted as owner he could still consign the firearm to FFL or leave it there, find his own buyer and sell it and have the FFL do the transfer. Joe is allowed to own a firearm but isn't allowed to possess a firearm.

    You would need to walk softly so the FFL doesn't decide it feels like a straw purchase.

    I'm fairly new and would consult my IOI on this but that's my basic understanding of how to handle the situation.
     
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Actually it belongs to joe but joe cant take possession. Joe can legally sell it to someone else while never taking actual possession.

    How do i know??

    it happened to me.

    A while back i bought an m16a1. While the paperwork on dealer to dealer transfer was going the batfe changed the rules on how transfers worked in wisconsin. I couldnt get a cleo letter for transfer to my trust. So i owned the machine gun but couldnt take posession legally. I ended up having to sell it to someone else.

    While felons can own a firearm they cannot posess one. Big difference. This means that joe can legally sell his property, a firearm, without ever taking posession.

    But since im no lawyer you should either contact one or forget about the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  19. LibertyGunworks

    LibertyGunworks New Member

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    As long as Bob will cooperate with Joe it still belongs to Bob since a transfer was never done. He can pick it up or have it shipped back. The consignment/sell is an option for Joe if Bob won't cooperate/agree to take it back.

    JonM- You got stuck with the A1 because your FFL and or his distributor wouldn't/didn't offer to take it back. Restocking fee / and the profit on NFA items are good.

    Liberty Gunworks LLC - 01 FFL
     
  20. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    You are confusing ownership and possession, two different things legally.

    The new felon may have ownership of as many guns as he wants. He may not possess them. He is free to sell them to anyone that can legally possess them. He may not touch, handle, fondle, or have access to them.

    I sell a gun to Frank. When it arrives at the FFL that is receiving it, he runs a background check, and determines that Frank may not possess a gun. Frank may have the dealer sell it for him, or- since no transfer of ownership has taken place, have the FFL ship it back to me- IF I am willing to take it back.

    And yes, a felon may dispose of guns that he owned when convicted. He may not POSSESS them. He can give them away, he can sell them, he can have them made into guitar picks. No touchy.

    PS- and I am not an attorney- but this has been debated before. It is the legal reverse of a gunsmith that is repairing your gun. He possesses it, but does not own it. He does own a monetary interest in the cost of his work (mechanic's lien) and is responsible for the property of others in his care and custody.

    And welcome to the forum- glad to have you here.