Can own handguns,can't get CCW

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by ninjatoth, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    I live in Michigan,and have just recently got into handguns.I went down to the law enforcement agency,got 3 permits to purchase handguns,and got some,I love shooting,and got one gun specifically for self defense.Well,I thought about getting a CCW or CPL as it's called in Michigan,and found out that I can't get a carry permit because I have a mental illness.I have been in and out of doctors offices and counselors offices for years dealing with various issues,and I have been diagnosed officially with OCD(obsessive compulsive disorder)which,if you aren't familiar with it,is a condition in which one might count things in strange orders,or be compulsivly washing their hands etc.Well,here in Michigan,that constitutes "mental illness" and under one of the application questions it says yes or no "have mental illness reguardless of being treated".I have to say yes legally,which puts me at a "no" as far as getting a CPL"CCW".I am quite frustrated about it and don't know what to think.
     
  2. Jo da Plumbr

    Jo da Plumbr New Member

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    I think you should be glad you get to own a gun at all. Here in CA if you have any treated mental issues you can't even own a gun. They don't ask what illness and make exceptions for the less seriously affected. So be glad for what you have.
     

  3. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    I think it's sad they put all mental conditions into one class.That's like putting ALL physical conditions into one class,saying slight asthma is the same as full out quadraplegic.The funny thing is,Michigan is an open carry legal state.They have no interest in training people like me in a CCW class in safety,yet allow me to open carry a handgun with no training at all.Michigan needs to reform this to be more like Texas.Down there they have dementia disorders separated from non dementia illnesses.If I lived there i'd have my CCW already.
     
  4. themyst

    themyst New Member

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    Sorry to hear you are having troubles with getting your CPL. I never gave those questions much thought because I never had to deal with it. However, you really made me think about the way Michigan deals with it so broadly. Has anyone ever been saddened for a few days about the passing of a loved one? Or loss of a job? That's technically called Situational Depression or Adjustment Disorder if you can believe it. Most info on this claims that you will be referred to a mental health doctor for treatment, though this kind of 'depression' is temporary. So, according to Michigan then, (according to your claim of under one of the application questions it says yes or no "have mental illness reguardless of being treated) anyone who technically ever had a sad thing happen to them in life would not qualify for a CPL (even if they didn't see a doctor for it) :eek: . No, that really doesn't make sense.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  5. Jess

    Jess New Member

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    Opinion #7189

    If you didn't see a doc it didn't happen in michigan. You have to have a diagnosis to be rejected. It stinks. I think it should be up to our gun boards in combination with a consulting physician.
     
  6. Robert NC

    Robert NC New Member

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    Have you tried fighting through your local gun organization yet? Saw from your post back in July that there was at least one organization that was really pro gun.
     
  7. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

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    I think that if you want to spend the time and money to fight it, you could win the right to get a carry permit eventualy, but this just shows why being TOO HONEST and transparent isn't allways smart.
    The problem here is that the responsable people like ninja are good enough to be honest, but the people that are hearing voices and setting kittens on fire aren't going to voluntarily declair they're mentaly ill on paper!
     
  8. Texanbybirth

    Texanbybirth New Member

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    Can you get a non-resident CHL in another state that is recognized in Michigan? TX and FL are not recognized in MI, but maybe there is another state nearby.
     
  9. Franciscomv

    Franciscomv New Member

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    In Argentina you need to get tested by both a physician and a psicologist (a psichiatrist can run both sets of evaluations) before you apply for your gun permit (to own, not to carry), and have to be tested again when you apply for a carry permit. As long as they consider that you're fit to own/carry a gun, you're fine. Not that this in any help to you. :(

    Anyway, we had a few cases at my club with disabled people (a guy who'd lost an arm) that had some trouble getting their paperwork from the government. They decided to hire a lawyer and it was eventually sorted out. So my advice would be to find a good lawyer who knows gun laws, ask around at your range or through one of the pro-gun organizations in your area. Ask him whether he thinks you've got a shot (bad pun, I know), in which case you'll need to weigh the cost, red tape and paperwork against the odds of success and decide if you consider it a worthwhile investment (face it, it'll cost you time and money).

    Good luck!
     
  10. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    And the idiocracy of it all is that anyone at all who can legally posses a firearm,can carry it openly in Michigan.I can,without a carry permit,buy a leg strap holster,strap the gun to my leg and waltz around town,with the legal right to defend myself with it,and there is no "mental" requirement for owning handguns here,you must only fill in on the gun license that you have never been "involuntarily" committed to a mental hospital.You can literally have schizophrenia,lite kittens on fire,talk to Elvis and check yourself into the psych ward and still be legally able to purchase a handgun and open carry it in Michigan.But,on the other hand,if you so much as have had slight depression diognosed by an MD,you cannot get a CCW.All this makes little sense to me.
     
  11. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    It dosnt make sence to anyone here from what Im seeing. On the other hand, if you were to take the hard road which would involve a lawyer and all the paperwork, you might find you help many many other people in your same exact situation. This really isnt any diffrent then the fact that per Michigan law, at 20, I can purchase a handgun from a private owner (with purchase permit of course) but I would be unable to purchase the ammunition for it! I think it would be worth at least looking into. Not to be a broken record, but go to the range and talk to the proprieter about finding a 2A educated lawyer. See where it goes from there. It surely cant hurt!
     
  12. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    I have wondered why you can buy a handgun here at 18 through private sellers,yet can't buy ammo.Even at walmart they ask if the .22 ammo you are buying is for handgun or rifle,and when I say handgun,even at 29,they jump to ID me.The only way around it is to buy a .22 at 18 and buy .22 ammo where they don't ask if it's for a handgun,or just simply lie when you buy .22 ammo,which I don't condone,but what other options are there.Having an "adult"lol,buy pistol ammo.I remember when I was a kid I would just walk into the hardware store and buy ammo no questions asked.And why,oh my why,are there so many restrictions on handguns,I think it's said that 80% of all handgun shootings end up to be non fatal,as where at 18,anyone can,without so much as a permit,buy semi auto AKs and other high capacity semi auto rifles.The damage that could cause.I say reverse the handgun to semi auto rifle laws,and vice versa,and we will be getting somewhere.
     
  13. hogger129

    hogger129 New Member

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    I would be frustrated too. I have mild epileptic seizures, and I recently got on medication for it, haven't had a full on seizure before, just small jerks and twitches. Have not had a single jerk or twitch since I've been on my medication. Conceal carry is illegal across the board here in Wisconsin, but I am afraid that should conceal carry be legal by shall-issue permits, they will deny me too because of that. I would not think that what I have constitutes "mental illness," then again it isn't OCD either. I don't know on this one. It's a tough call. You could sue and argue discrimination, however, the way they see it, OCD people have mood swings. As the Democrats say, "You might go nuts." But if I were the judge, and you were on medication to control it, and haven't had any of the OCD symptoms, I don't see why you should be denied a permit. Otherwise, I'd say do some backdoor deals and get a fake or backdated permit or just carry illegally. I bet there are all sorts of people who carry illegally here in my state that never get caught. I'm not one of them, but I'm sure it goes on. Hope that makes you feel better. Peace.
     
  14. hogger129

    hogger129 New Member

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    Yeah that kinda would irk me too. If it were me, I'd just say it's for a rifle. Then they don't ID you. Who cares if you lie? It isn't like they are wired and are going to prosecute you if you are lieing.

    I agree that this is one of those stupid laws that are supposed to make people feel more safe when in fact it doesn't really do anything at all but piss people off.

    I disagree that we should place more strict laws on semi-auto rifles. I am sure that you oppose outright banning them, but when common criminals hold up a liquor store or a gas station or commit other crimes where firearms are involved, rarely are they ever using assault rifles. A good majority of the time, they are carrying handguns. The way I see it, the only people who do robberies or other crimes with assault rifles are professionals, carreer criminals.

    The problem with this is no different from any other handgun or gun law. Crime is just a sad fact of life that happens, and instead of protecting people and stopping crime, they tighten up the grip and destroy the rights of otherwise law-abiding people like you or me. If crime rages out of control, arm citizens. It doesn't cost the state money to arm citizens like it does to put more cops on the street. 10,000 armed citizens scare criminals more than 1,000 armed police officers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2009
  15. hogger129

    hogger129 New Member

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    Exactly. Try writing to the NRA or something and see if they will help you.
     
  16. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    The main reason for this as I understand it, is the issue of conclement. You cant REALLY conceal a AK or AR. The main reason I didnt get the Hi-Point 9mm carbine was becuase of the fear of being hassled about ammo (I got the Ruger 10/22 instead)! However, most people would look at me and say Im late 20's earl 30's so I dont get hassled with .22. Which of course means I probably COULD have gotten away with buying 9mm and not getting too hassled.
     
  17. themyst

    themyst New Member

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    Indeed. But, it does make perfect bureaucratic sense!

    That's how it is here, too. I took my safety course and now must apply for my CCW at the local police in my tiny little town. I'm a little worried already that I'll be hassled though there is no legal reason to do so. Those things still happen in tiny, forgotten towns, it's not just in the movies. So, if I'm temporarily denied my right to a CCW permit, it will still be perfectly legal for me to stroll down the sidewalk in my town wearing a tactical vest with all my pistols and clips hanging off of it, along with an AR15 strapped to my back. I can't figure the sense in that. :confused:
     
  18. ThomasAnderson

    ThomasAnderson New Member

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    I know exactly how you feel; I also have been diagnosed with PTSD from being a victim of childhood abuse and later crimes, but I am not an increased threat to anyone-- in fact I'm less violent than almost anyone; I am strictly against violence against anyone, but that includes myself and MY right to be safe. Mainly I want to be able to protect myself against dangerous people and animals (like vicious dogs), and I believe that I have th same right to be safe as anyone else. It's horrible to think that the law still caters to such public ignorance and hysteria-- it's as if things haven't progressed much since the Salem Witch-trials or The Inquisition! People think they live in a free society, but then you realize that Ben Franklin was right: i.e. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch, but liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." In fact that's quite ironic in the case of dis-arming people, so that they become lambs to the proverbial "slaughter."

    Meanwhile my brother struts around with his CCW, despite being practically sociopathic and bi-polar, simply because he's fully employed and doesn't subject himself to a diagnosis of any kind. Then he has the nerve to talk down to me that "you're an emotional person who shouldn't have a gun." (I didn't speak to him for a long time after that, I was so ticked off).

    So if I carry a handgun, I have to carry it openly. My question is, am I even allowed to get a permit to purchase a handgun? Or does that permit-application ALSO have the same "mental illness" restriction?
    Thanks.
     
  19. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    I'm not sure where you live,so I can't be sure on the right answer,but here in Michigan,there are no restrictions on handgun sales based solely on a mental illness.Only if you have been legally judged as insane,have been ordered by a judge to a mental hospital,or have been found not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity can you be denied a handgun purchase permit.You can have the worst of the worst mental illnesses,and commit yourself to a mental hospital and still be able to get a handgun.I have been in a hospital years ago when times got bad for me,and I still see a psychiatrist regularly and recieve social security for the OCD,and I can still buy handguns.It's only on the concealed weapons applications do they become more blunt and try to deny you based on a simple mental illness.
     
  20. ThomasAnderson

    ThomasAnderson New Member

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    THANK you, that's what I wanted to know.
    I was worried that while we can open-carry, they won't let us PURCHASE one.
    I felt so alone and hated in this, it's good to know I'm not the only one.

    I think that we should also find everyone who's affected by this discriminatory and unconstitutional law, and likewise everyone else who wants to concealed-carry, and file a lawsuit to the Michigan Supreme Court in order to have the discriminatory law overturned!