Caliber Epiphany

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by bayouBore, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. bayouBore

    bayouBore New Member

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    Back when I turned 21, I bought my first handgun. The first step was to decide on caliber. It was going to be a .40 or .45, 9mm was too small and I was a man's man. After talking to many people and many nights of research online, I decided on the .40 for magazine capacity and it was, to me it was the ultimate caliber without a doubt. Then I went to my lgs and handled a glock, xd, and the new px4 (new at the time). The px4 fit me like a glove. It was like King Arthur wielding Excalibur for the first time. It also came with adjustable back straps and the added benefit of a rotating barrel to absorb recoil and claims of excellent accuracy. The pistol has held up over the years to a few thousand rounds and is ridiculously accurate. It's always been reliable too.

    Let's fast forward to today. From the day I bought my px4, I have been a die hard .40 s&w fan. I preach .40 to everyone and had no use for 45 and 9mm. .40 is that happy medium. The only other caliber I was considering was a 10mm but that was a want and not a need at the moment. In the last several months I was wanting something new and my life and needs have changed. In the last few years I have been wanting a Glock. They are nearly bullet proof, accurate, reliable, they have the best magazines IMHO for quality and capacity, and Glocks are just down right awesome. I've handled a few different models that family and friends own (g17, g21 and g21sf, g20c, and a g22). Never a compact always full size but I still love them, except for in the larger calibers I like the grip on the sf models. Anyway I've been wanting a compact pistol for my ccw and my wife's home defense weapon. The px4 is too big for my wife's hands and not practical for concealment. So the next pistol I was buying was going to be a compact Glock and of course a .40. The Glock 23 gen 4 was coming home first chance I got to go to the lgs. One Saturday my buddy and I went to the range. I was 100% sure I was buying a Glock 23 gen 4 so that day I rented one. I shot great for the first time with it and liked it. Then my buddy leaned over and said try my gen 3 g19. This is when I had the epiphany. The 19 was far more accurate, follow up shots were extremely faster, it still fit my hand the same, the mag holds two additional shots, and for my intended purposes for it it was literally perfect. My wife could handle the g19 far easier than the g23. I really like the g23 but the way it recoils slows you down on follow up shots. On a side note, the recoil of a .40 is nothing to complain about as far as intensity. It's just funky in how it pops up and twists so it takes longer to realign sights for follow up shots.

    After a lot of research, and realizing that I can buy 9mm ammo equivalent to that of .40 and it's cheaper, higher 9mm availability, and have two extra shots in a ccw, I bought the Glock 19 gen 4 with the fde frame. I also had the lgs add Trijicon hd night sights. The gun fits me well and fits the wife even better. I was never a huge fan of the gen 3 grip but the gen 4 grip is the bees knees. I'm loving the Glock world too. You can customize anything on the gun, accessories are everywhere and easy to order, and you can go to bed at night confident that it will fires hen needed. When I bought the px4 there were basically no accessories anywhere and the few on beretta's site I could never find. One thing the Glock has over the px4 is no thumb safety. The safety on the px4 is terrible. I like the decocker functionality but hate that you have to reach up so damn high to engage/disengage.

    Well I guess the moral to the story is to get out and shoot different makes, models, and various calibers. You might have needs and wants today that are far different from the future. Don't believe everything you read online either. I hate the hundreds of caliber war threads. This post is not to persuade anyone just to tell my story. I think I'm still in shock that I own and love a 9mm. At the end if the day I feel that I have the right tools to keep my family and myself safe. Hopefully I'll use all of my handguns for range time and hunting purposes and never for defense.
     
  2. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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  3. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    Epiphany you say? Sorry, had to:

    [ame]http://youtu.be/DIz9mS3igIs[/ame]

    FWIW, I still prefer .45 over both. Though I did find my XD40SC to be a very good pistol. I also have a CZ in 9mm. The more the merrier, everyone is entitled to have favorites. Heck, you don't really even need a good reason.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  4. gladesbassin

    gladesbassin New Member

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    G19 are awesome firearms. Welcome to the 9mm club, don't feel undergunned either. What sd rounds are you using?
     

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  5. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    I disagree with pincus on a profound fundamental level.

    He goes at it from the aspect of being able to shoot a target a bunch of times fast with a small light caliber. Thats all great and good in range time and ipsec competition etc.

    In real world self defense the goblin isnt typically going to stand there square to you and let you shoot him as fast as you can in a bad western rerun version of gunsmoke.

    Its fast up close dirty and nasty and usually only involves 1 or 2 at most actual hits. The person getting hit unless its a spinal or brainstem or head shot usually doesnt even know they have been hit and agression is likely to continue.

    I look at it like this... the worst case is im up close i may only be able to get one non- critical hit on him. I want that permanent hole to be through and through with the largest diameter i have available. Its why my main carry is a 45.

    A goblin will leak faster from a .45 hole than one that is .357(9mm) or .4. I want tha goblin leaking as much as possible while the wrastlin match is going on. It degrades strength and endurance. The faster he leaks the more likely i am to survive such an encounter.

    The other way it happens is the ccw person pulls a gun gets one shot on the goblin. The goblin goes for cover or fires back and the ccw person runs for cover. A fast leaking goblin from a big hole is going to have less time to hunt me down or do others more harm.

    Thats why i only carry a smaller bullet when i have no choice but still need a hidden gun. Any chance i have i carry a 45.

    What works in police work doesnt work for civilians. Civilians typically arent confronting a goblin in a stand off like police are. We are usually confronted by a the goblin and have little time to get off more than one or two shots.

    Look at youtube vids of ccw folks in action and look at vids of police in action with guns and you see two totally different needs.

    Thats why rob pincus is full of poop when it comes to your typical ccw encounter
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  6. bayouBore

    bayouBore New Member

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    I'm looking at 124gr +p flavor. I like what I see from Black Hills, Corbon, Winchester Ranger T and Speer Gold Dot. I just need to narrow it down and choose. I have a lot more training and practice before I deploy it as my ccw.

    As far as ultra close encounters and all arguments on the 45. I do not deny the effectiveness of the .45acp round. I do have to argue the point that I can pop off multiple 9mm shots accurately in the time it takes to effectively place one good shot with the .45 in these scenarios previously stated. It seems to me that multiple small holes in a "goblin" will bleed out quicker and more effectively than one large hole in a ineffective area. I can easily put two shots center mass in the time it takes you to put one in the goblin. I'd rather an accurate double tap on a target than one poorly placed shot. I know shooting a silhouette is no where near a defense situation, but I can put two center mass and one in the head on a silhouette way faster than bigger calibers. Factor in misses and off center shots that's still three vs one. That one has a potential for missing and being off. Also, take a look the latest ballistics tests of all of the calibers and tell me how much difference is there?
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    I dont want to belabor the point but your typical goblin isnt going to just stand there and let you put round after round in his noggin...

    A typical armed encounter is violent quick fast dirty and seldom if ever more than one hit by either side lands.
     
  8. levelcross

    levelcross New Member

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    I also like the .40 S&W, yet I find the 9mm so much faster for second shot on target that I am thinking about selling my .40 and getting a 9mm. I never truly bought into the big bore only stigma and in no way am I going to get rid of my .45 in the foreseeable future, but with the flip of the .40 over the 9mm or .45 I honestly think the .40 will be finding a new owner soon.
     
  9. jreis

    jreis New Member

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    JonM, why not .357 mag over 45 cal. ATI better at 5.7 seconds vs 7.2 seconds. Assuming one or two shots.

    45 cal has only 5 hundredths of an inch larger expansion, and one shot stop 95.7% vs 91.8% for 45 auto. .357 mag more than 2/3" greater penetration. Shock factor 920psi for 45 acp vs more than 1475psi for the .357.

    Seems like this would be your cartridge of choice judging by your las post.

    I don't mean to make this into a caliber war, just wondering. I'm sure it may have something to do with the firearm options between the two calipers but it seems to me that stopping power is a much greater concern than round capacity.
     
  10. bayouBore

    bayouBore New Member

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    Agreed. With the logic of a hyper speed attack from proverbial goblins allowing for one toss up shot, why not use a 44 mag, 454 casull or heck even 500 s&w. These would provide killer knock down and a one shot drop. You'd have to throw practicality out the window. It's not a caliber war, it's a situational war. There are training methods to allow you to make multiple accurate shots in a high speed close quarters goblin infestation.
     
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    They are very very very heavy and extremely large guns. 45 is a good compromise. 357 in a usable barrel length is very wide difficult to conceal. The snubby 357 are more inline with the 38spl for usable energy. It just needs that barrel length to get moving good.

    45 as i see it is the next best thing.

    I do carry a 380acp at times due to the need to be ultra discrete. The first rule of self defense is have a gun. Second rule have one in the largest caliber you can manage. If your comfy with 9mm or 40 or whatever its better that a bare fist.

    My point is that i take exception to pincus is he is, in my opinion, laying out a lot of bogus info.

    An off center hit with a 357 is still a 357 hole. 454 is 45 and 500 is half inch.

    You can do what ya want im not going to beat you up or think less of anyone for using a 9mm. My wife uses a 9mm she is more comfy and accurate with it than with the exact same gun in 45.

    Im just stating my personal reasoning and why i do what i do. Just dont let an expert in the business of selling stuff be your final say.
     
  12. Garadex

    Garadex New Member

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    If we're talking about shooting faster we should carry .22's we can get a whole lot of rounds on target with almost zero recoil.
     
  13. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Also a fan of .45acp here; screw the metric system.

    This reminds me of some dates i've had.
     
  14. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jon, anything you can't stop with a 9MM, you won't stop with a .45 either.
     
  15. bayouBore

    bayouBore New Member

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    Agreed, there are records of various calibers requiring multiple shots on an attacker especially with an altered state of consciousness.

    Though be careful, the metric system scares some people. Haha!
     
  16. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Op

    After 17 years of daily CCW I've reached a similar conclusion.

    I began in the .45 ACP only club and carried nothing but 1911's for the first 10 years until the realities of work attire changed and effectively concealing anything with a full size grip became problematic.

    I spent about a year carrying an NA Guardian .380 before deciding I had no faith in that caliber.

    Ultimately I settled on 9 MM because I had to have a gun I could conceal 100% under a tucked in button down shirt. At the time, "4 years ago" the two available pistols that fit my size profile and were chambered for a major caliber were the Kahr PM 9 and the Rohbar..."Spelling?"

    At 620 for the Kahr and 1k for the RO ...I opted for the Kahr and have been quite happy with it's performance and concealability.

    My bedside gun is a Sig 226 in .40 and is a great pistol but I would not want .40 in compact for the same reasons you discovered.

    Tack
     
  17. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    The 357 is a wonderful manstopper as long as you don't have to worry about collateral damage. I wouldn't want to be behind the BG if he gets nailed with a 357. Funny how the swat team and special forces guys don't seem to care for the 9mm they always seem to be carrying 45's. The average number of rounds fired in a civilian vs. BG gunfight is 4 so magazine capacity isn't much of a factor. Stick with the 45 cause shooting twice is just silly.
     
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    thats not the reason why. the bigger hole is why i carry a 45. more liquid loss means the goblin ceases aggression faster. pistol shot wounds are pretty damn effective if left untreated. 22lr is the most successful killer out there yet it takes hours for a typical gunshot from a 22lr to stop the victim. little bitty hole takes a long time to leak out. great big hole means the liquid leaves faster.

    if i am ever forced to use a firearm i want the biggest holes i can manage in the bad guy so he leaks fast and stops being a aggressive fast.

    one shot stop if it happens is great and good but odds are the fight will continue after that first hit.

    you can see it for yourself if you want. take two buckets with a .357 hole and one with a .451 hole plug them. attach string to each plug fill the bucket with 13 pints of water. pull both plugs at the same time. which drains faster?? that difference in time is how much time the goblin has to reload fire more rounds or pound the back of your head into the ground like what happened to zimmerman...

    ill take the route that disables the bad guy faster to limit his oppurtunity for further evil actions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  19. SatoriNoir

    SatoriNoir New Member

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    The buckets are a valid example to your argument, but you forget to account recoil and muzzle flip to reaquire your target sight. Each bucket has only one hole, but you even said so yourself that odds are it would go on past that first hit.

    In the same amount of time for you to shoot three or four 45 rounds in a bucket, I could argue you'd shoot five or six 9mm with twice as many holes in the same bucket
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  20. JD1969

    JD1969 New Member

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    That depends entirely on the gun. If you shoot a LC9 vs a officers size 1911, I'd argue the .45 is faster for follow up shots as it will have less felt recoil and less muzzle flip. The whole argument is just silly anyways and smacks of fanboyism to the 9th degree. Carry what you shoot best and call it day, I choose a 1911 most days because it is what fell most comfortable with and it's what I happen to shoot best, you carry whatever works for you.