Bullets

Discussion in 'Hunting Forum' started by JimRau, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I just got my May issue of 'Guns&Ammo' and there is a good article titled "The Bullet is the Bottom Line". This is not a detailed tech article but it gives the reader a very good general description of the various types of hunting bullets available to hunters today. It also address the VAST lack of knowledge among hunters when it comes to bullet selection, of which I and many others have been TRYING to address here and on many other forms on the 'net'. If you have access to this publication, especially if you are a new hunter or an 'old' hunter who has not kept up with technology, I would suggest you read it. ;)
    Just because 'it worked once' does not mean it is the right tool for the job!!!!:eek:
     
  2. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    Are you saying you can wring more out of that rig.
     

  3. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    :confused:I am saying just what the post says. What are you saying???;)
     
  4. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    I am dissapointed Jim. You know your stuff and always post VG examples that show your knowledge. I'll answer my question. When it comes to bullets for hunting, yes. Are there trade offs, yes. The question is are you willing to loose an inch at 100 yards for a bullet that will out perform what you have used. Depends on the game it is intended for. I've got old cup and core to Barnes TTXP. Neither seems to kill any better, but the barnes can do bone better. Range is a major factor.
     
  5. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    It has been interesting over the past 50 years to watch the bullet marketing. As hard as it may be to believe Winchester and Remington Bulk bullets took all of the Big and small game of the day.
    Marketing and sales took the bullet to a very high end component of the reloading industry. We now have cloths embroidered with the name of our favorite missile. Bullets have now reached the level of designer jeans. :p
     
  6. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did any of you read the piece?:confused:
    The general rule I teach when talking big game hunting bullet selection is as follows:
    7mm or smaller and/or 2800 fps or faster use a premium bullet with a high SD!:)
    The smaller diameter bullets MUST retain their weight to penetrate deep enough to get clean kills, and high velocity is devastating (explosive fragmentation) on bullets so the use of premium bullets for big game in these circumstances is a must! ;)
     
  7. Rocky7

    Rocky7 New Member

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    I read a real interesting book a little while ago called "Alaska's Wolf Man". It was a true biography of a hunter/trapper who lived in Alaska in the early 20th century. I grew up in the North and found his stories both fascinating and true in every detail.

    He shot lots of moose; some with a .22 High Power. Many with slightly bigger calibers. He also shot lots of grizzly bears with a .30-06; sometimes at close quarters.

    Just sayin'....
     
  8. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    Did not read a single word. I don't use small calibers for large game. I have no issue using using a 285gr cast lead 9.3 on anything I would hunt here in NH. I'll use 53gr Barnes on coyote, 52gr speer HP also, add up to 65gr sierra .224's but would not use them on whitetail. I will use a 205gr jsp in a .44-40 rifle on whitetail out to 100 yards, but not really past. Never been much of a speed demon. Always liked some mass weight. I still use Barnes XFB, TSX and TTSX besides Partitions for most hunting. I'll use cup and core when it is appropriate.
     
  9. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    I would like to see some hard facts on game taken and the use of modern "Super" bullets. The hunting bullets thru shrewd marketing has been elevated to the level of Bench rest shooting.
    The facts are that a .458 535 grs. Sharps Paper patch bullet is as effective as any modern missile. I doubt that few modern hunters use these bullets. However factory jacketed bullets are very efficient. Much of todays "Super" bullet value goes into the manufactures pocket not in to the game.
    There are far less Big Game hunters than there were even 25 years ago. Hunters spend far fewer days afield. The modern hunter often trys to make up their lack of skill by spending for useless well marketed items.
    After all fishing lures are made to appeal to the fisherman not the fish. How about a fancy box of premium "Super" bullets.:confused:
     
  10. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't post here to criticize you, or anyone else posting here, or even get you to change your mind. There are MANY who simple come here for information and advise but never enter into the discussion. It is those who I post for.
    The bases for my advise is 50+ years of hunting, testing, and researching this subject. Use it or disregard it as you please!;)
     
  11. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    You have not criticized or tried to change my mind. I think your an asset here. To be honest, I don't have access to the article in question. I don't think others do either. The opening post kind of gave away what it was about. My concern is that someone that does come here for information will think using a premium bullet will make up for shooter short comings. Your rule about 7mm or smaller and 2800fps or faster does not take into the effective range. There is also a rule I use for large heavy skinned game. 1500fpe on impact. That can be used for any caliber, cartridge, bullet weight. It makes it simple. That tells you the max effective range. An example would be. I am going Elk hunting. I have loaded up some Sierra .308 165gr Game Kings w/ a MV of 2700fps for a .308. Using a 1500fpe base it becomes a 300 yard rifle and cartridge for elk. Are there variables, sure. But it is less likely you will have a wounded animal wandering for a day or 2 before it dies. With a 150 yard zero it gives a Max Point blank of 273 yards w/ a 5" kill zone. Now we know an Elk has larger then a 5" kill zone. Call it insurance. The actual kill zone is double the 5", so slight hunter error becomes a none issue as does a 2" wind drift. Using the correct bullet and an appropriate caliber is always 1st and foremost, but knowing the limitations of what you are using, plus your own is no less important.
     
  12. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You missed the point! The key word in my post is 'GENERAL' !;)
    We can talk about the detailed circumstances all you want, but I will stand by the 'GENERAL' rule I stated above. I am giving this advise to try and limit the number of wounded and lost big game animals caused by unknowing hunters who do not understand terminal ballistics!;)
     
  13. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    I live in the Rocky Mtns. big game hunting is a way of life. Wounded and lost game are by far the result of poorly placed shots than bullet construction. There is no proof that the number of lost game animals has improved because of "Super" bullets. :)
     
  14. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes there is!:eek: I have witnessed it way to many times, that is why I try to prevent it when ever I can. Miss placed shots have nothing to do with this topic. Marksmanship is a totally different topic than terminal ballistics. By the way I was born and raised in CO and hunted there (in the Rocky Mountains) for 40+ years (I do miss it, but CO has been totally Califofnicated!!!:()
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  15. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    Just 40 years? Hell you didn't wear out a cheap saddle Jim. ;):D Yes seriously Colorado has been ruined for 30 years. I do believe the propaganda of marketing has created hunters who think a "Silver" bullet is the answer. :(
     
  16. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    There is a difference in bullets. Speer 270gr 9.3(.366) do have a tendancy to shed there jacket and loose more mass weight on heavy game compared w/ 286gr partitions. They work fine on whitetail, but are not the bullet for heavy game.
     
  17. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are right, the saddle I rode for 25+ years is still good, but I can't say that for the number of stocks I broke while in the saddle.:D
    I don't believe there a 'silver' or magic bullet. But some bullets just do a better job than others when use under the proper circumstances.
    I equate 'bullets' to 'tires'! You take a vehicle like a PU and use it from everything from urban commuting to off roading and the make very little changes except the tires. A good gun is the same. With a simple 'load/bullet' change you can use a gun for many different applications.
    The 'general' rule I use is stated above and it seems to take some of the over complication away from bullet selection today. There are so many bullets out there to chose from it is even complicated for someone who knows termaimal ballistics and try to keep up with the science!!! :confused:
     
  18. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    There are so many options. I could not imagine being on a budget when it comes to the actual cartridge. We are straining to keep it all together as everything keeps increasing, but I make less now. If I have the chance to go on a once in a lifetime hunt, I can load ammo from my stock that I paid very little for compared with todays prices on just components. I could not imagine paying $65.00 for 20 cartridges. I have a co-worker that has booked a trip to South Africa for next year. He is taking a cheap .308 rifle w/ a cheap scope and cheap ammo, but it is 180gr which is required for plains game. He will hunt 5 different animals and hunts for a few days a year and shoots less. This is what Jim is talking about. This is the same brain surgeon that told a co-worker that a red dot could not hold zero on a 5.45 AK, just too much recoil. The biggest problem is not the lack of knowledge about terminal ballistics, it is ignorance and stupidity.
     
  19. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like I said, that is why I post on line. If my advise helps anyone to be a better, more humane, hunter I am happy.
    This is not a perfect world and Murphy is alive and well!;)
    The only way to fight ignorance is through education, there is no cure for stupid!!!;)